Posts by Robert_V

20

Help me out, ex-jw Christians: JW and salvation

by Check_Your_Premises in

i have been doing some more research and thinking about the topic of salvation.

what got me working on this, is that i have been conducting a bible study, with my family.

i decided a good topic would be the overall theme of the bible.

Robert_V_Frazier

So I decided to address those concerns respectfully by covering the overall theme of the Bible, and our next discussion will be on salvation.

Excellent idea! In keeping with the advice to read the Bible in context, and not just look for specific answers to your questions, I'd advise reading through Romans and Galatians with your family. Restrict your questions to asking what Paul is saying (first) and what does that mean for us now (second). Which to read first is up to you. Both are on the same subject, salvation -- what it means, how it happens, to whom, and why. Galatians was written first, and is shorter, but it's also written in crisis mode, and Paul is clearly very upset with the Galatian Christians. Romans is longer and decidedly tougher going to get through, but it is also less hot-tempered.

Those two books more than anything else led to the Protestant reformation. Groups like the Roman Catholic Church in the middle ages and the Watchtower Society today are in the cross-hairs of these two books, and they don't pull any punches.

Robert V Frazier

19

The Compassionate JW

by PopeOfEruke in

the united way realized that it had never received a donation from the city's most successful businessman who is a jehovahs witness.

so a united way volunteer paid the jw businessman a visit in his lavish office.. the volunteer opened the meeting by saying, "our research shows that even though your annual income is over two million dollars, you don't give a penny to charity.

wouldn't you like to give something back to your community through the united way?".

Robert_V_Frazier

If it makes you feel better, gdt, I first read that joke in Isaac Asimov's Treasury of Humor, and he told it with a Jewish businessman as the main character.

You're right; this joke is not at all true to life -- as if "the city's most successful businessman" in any city is ever going to be a Jehovah's Witness! Sure, a Jehovah's Witness can be successful, but the most successful in the city is going to have to be very intelligent, have excellent people skills, and devote a lot more time to the business than to the activities directed by the Kingdom Hall.

Robert V Frazier

12

"Pay Attention to yourselves and to All the flock" on Ebay

by Panda in

someone just paid $50 for this brochure on ebay!!!!!

why when you can get it for free on the internet?

please, enlighten me.

Robert_V_Frazier

greendawn
BTW if that is the secret elders guide, where is it to be found on the net?

rebel8
IF it is on the internet, it is in a secret location, not available unless someone gives you access, AFAIK.

You can read the complete text on two different websites now. That may change in time. Here are the URL's:

http://dbhome.dk/carlo/
http://watchtower.observer.org/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040321/SECRETBOOKS/604007

Robert V Frazier

23

Prove to me that the Watchtower is the "Faithful +discreet slave class"

by hubert in

.

i credit this to "cinemablend" for giving me the thought.. prove to me that the watchtower is the "faithful and discreet slave class', to which the j.w's have to obey down to the letter.. who can "prove" or "disprove" this?.

hubert

Robert_V_Frazier

Does this book only exists in hard copy or are there pdf's available...

Both. Hardback, $12.49, http://www.lulu.com/content/128190 Downloadable PDF, $5.00, http://www.lulu.com/content/128319

Enjoy.

Robert V. Frazier

7

Only just read this - anyone record it ?

by A Paduan in

.

the recent australian sunday program.

http://sunday.ninemsn.com.au/sunday/cover_stories/transcript_1789.asp

Robert_V_Frazier

The part of the program that gets to me the most is the segment where the elder John Wyngate is discussing with Graham Davis about a JW who confessed to raping a six-year-old girl:

GRAHAM DAVIS: This was a confession from a paedophile.
JOHN WYNGATE: That's right.
GRAHAM DAVIS: He confessed to it!
JOHN WYNGATE: Yes.
GRAHAM DAVIS: To abusing a 6-year-old.
JOHN WYNGATE: Yes.
GRAHAM DAVIS: And you disfellowshipped him, you banned him from the congregation for nine months.
JOHN WYNGATE: Yes.
GRAHAM DAVIS: And that was fair enough?
JOHN WYNGATE: No, well ...
GRAHAM DAVIS: Seriously.
JOHN WYNGATE: At the time we acted with the information we had.
GRAHAM DAVIS: The information you had was a confession that "I have abused this 6-year-old."
JOHN WYNGATE: That's right. His conduct, it was a one-off thing.
GRAHAM DAVIS: A one-off thing? With a 6-year-old? That's okay, is it?
JOHN WYNGATE: No, no, let me qualify my remarks. There was no evidence of sexual abuse of other children by this guy.
GRAHAM DAVIS: As we'll see, no evidence yet. That was to come. And, well, Dennis Evans was repentant.
JOHN WYNGATE: In a situation like that, you look for a person's remorse, and all of these qualities that go along with a request to be able to be allowed back into the Christian congregation.
GRAHAM DAVIS: But every paedophile is remorseful when he gets caught. That is the problem with paedophilia.
JOHN WYNGATE: It's all right for you to stand there and tell me all the facts.
GRAHAM DAVIS: But we know that he molested ...
JOHN WYNGATE: But you've never dealt with it, have you?
GRAHAM DAVIS: But we know he molested more girls than just Sonia.
JOHN WYNGATE: We do now, don't we?
GRAHAM DAVIS: We do.
JOHN WYNGATE: Yes, we do now.

It staggers the imagination. Here's this JW elder, a man CONFESSES to him that he raped a little girl, six years of age, and this elder actually thinks it's purely a matter for church discipline! And at least two other elders must have agreed that was all that was necessary! Call the cops? What for? He only raped her once as far as Wyngate knew, no big deal, and he didn't rape any other girls that Wyngate knew of at the time! Besides, he said he was sorry! They punished him -- they didn't let him be a good JW in fellowship with all the other good JW's for NINE WHOLE MONTHS! How traumatic that must have been.

And Wyngate still thinks that given the knowledge he had at the time, that this monster had raped one six-year-old girl one time, there was nothing more that he could have done, nothing that could have been handled better than it was. These moronic psychopaths actually believe that handing out the exact same punishment for smoking one cigarette and for raping one little girl is justice, righteousness, and holiness.

Unbelievable.

Robert V Frazier

9

Documenting the 2-witness rule applies to child abuse

by Robert_V_Frazier in

over at carm, corvus the jw defender from australia is loudly proclaiming that the two-witness rule is never applied when an allegation of child abuse is made.

i pointed out in some detail that the nov. 1, 1995 [i]watchtower[/i] article "comfort for those with a 'stricken spirit'", in the section "what can elders do?

" most definitely does teach that:

Robert_V_Frazier

Thanks for all the help. Some of these I was aware of, but forgot where to find them.

Robert V Frazier

9

Documenting the 2-witness rule applies to child abuse

by Robert_V_Frazier in

over at carm, corvus the jw defender from australia is loudly proclaiming that the two-witness rule is never applied when an allegation of child abuse is made.

i pointed out in some detail that the nov. 1, 1995 [i]watchtower[/i] article "comfort for those with a 'stricken spirit'", in the section "what can elders do?

" most definitely does teach that:

Robert_V_Frazier

Here we go again. Over at CARM, Corvus the JW defender from Australia is loudly proclaiming that the two-witness rule is never applied when an allegation of child abuse is made. I pointed out in some detail that the Nov. 1, 1995 [i]Watchtower[/i] article "Comfort for Those With a 'Stricken Spirit'", in the section "What Can Elders Do?" most definitely does teach that:

What Can Elders Do?
If the elders are approached by a member of the congregation who is experiencing flashbacks or "repressed memories" of child abuse, two of them are usually assigned to help. These elders should kindly encourage the afflicted one to focus for the time being on coping with the emotional distress. The names of any "remembered" abusers should be kept in strict confidence.
The elders' primary task is to act as shepherds. (Isaiah 32:1, 2; 1 Peter 5:2, 3) They should be especially careful to "clothe [themselves] with the tender affections of compassion, kindness, lowliness of mind, mildness, and long-suffering." (Colossians 3:12) Let them listen in a kindly way and then apply healing words from the Scriptures. (Proverbs 12:18) Some who are afflicted with painful "memories" have expressed appreciation for elders who make regular visits or even telephone calls to check to see how they are doing. Such contacts need not take a lot of time, but they show that Jehovah's organization cares. When the afflicted one realizes that his Christian brothers truly love him, he may be helped to recover a considerable degree of emotional balance.
What if the sufferer decides that he wants to make an accusation?# Then the two elders can advise him that, in line with the principle at Matthew 18:15, he should personally approach the accused about the matter. If the accuser is not emotionally able to do this face-to-face, it can be done by telephone or perhaps by writing a letter. In this way the one accused is given the opportunity to go on record before Jehovah with his answer to the accusation. He may even be able to present evidence that he could not have committed the abuse. Or perhaps the one accused will confess, and a reconciliation may be achieved. What a blessing that would be! If there is a confession, the two elders can handle matters further in accordance with Scriptural principles.
If the accusation is denied, the elders should explain to the accuser that nothing more can be done in a judicial way. And the congregation will continue to view the one accused as an innocent person. The Bible says that there must be two or three witnesses before judicial action can be taken. (2 Corinthians 13:1; 1 Timothy 5:19) Even if more than one person "remembers" abuse by the same individual, the nature of these recalls is just too uncertain to base judicial decisions on them without other supporting evidence. This does not mean that such "memories" are viewed as false (or that they are viewed as true). But Bible principles must be followed in establishing a matter judicially.
What if the one accused—though denying the wrongdoing—is really guilty? Does he "get away with it," as it were? Certainly not! The question of his guilt or innocence can be safely left in Jehovah's hands. "The sins of some men are publicly manifest, leading directly to judgment, but as for other men their sins also become manifest later." (1 Timothy 5:24; Romans 12:19; 14:12) The book of Proverbs says: "The expectation of the righteous ones is a rejoicing, but the very hope of the wicked ones will perish." "When a wicked man dies, his hope perishes." (Proverbs 10:28; 11:7) Ultimately, Jehovah God and Christ Jesus render everlasting judgment in justice.—1 Corinthians 4:5.
# It may also be necessary for the step outlined in this paragraph to be taken if the matter has become common knowledge in the congregation.

Can anyone help me out with further documentation from the Watchtower Society that the two-witness rule is indeed invoked when an accusation of child abuse is made by the victim and there is no one else to substantiate the claim? That in that event, the matter is for all intents and purposes dropped, the civil authorites are not informed, and as the quote above says, "the elders should explain to the accuser that nothing more can be done in a judicial way"?

I think the article quoted from above is probably the most explicit statement of this to appear in The Watchtower magazine, but are there any other sources I could quote? Specific BoE letters, etc? Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Robert V Frazier

P.S, I quoted the entire article this quote came from in the thread over at CARM. I can't post the link for some reason. It's in the JW board, topic is "TO CORVUS OR ANY JW".

126

607 date

by Cordelia in

ive just left the jws well got dfed a month ago!

but family want me back so im trying to prove to myself that it isnt true, top get the strength not to go back,i heard the 607 date may be false, can anyone show me about that, i know exactly what the jws say and cant believe the intial date is wrong, is it?

Robert_V_Frazier

Ah - so Scholar IS resorting to 'plan B' then - whatever that is in 'WTBTS-speak'?

Um, no. For "scholar", there can be no plan B. Plan A is to believe whatever the Society says is right. That's the one and only reason he has for defending 607 as the date of the fall of Jerusalem. In the unthinkable event that plan A fails, the fallback position is to defend plan A with more fanaticism, and louder. Unfortunately, he is insane. What you see in this thread and all other threads with "scholar" in them is the bizarre spectacle of reasonable people trying to persuade a madman that he is wrong. It cannot be done, but what can be done and is being done is to clearly show to all observers that he is mad, and so is the thesis he defends. He may someday snap out of his madness, but until then he will continue to defend the indefensible. He can't help himself. Robert V Frazier

2

methods used to get JWs (and Mormons) off the porch

by Robert_V_Frazier in

http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?idlink=752910

interesting thread, with some good laughs in it!.

robert v frazier

Robert_V_Frazier

http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=752910

Interesting thread, with some good laughs in it!

Robert V Frazier

126

607 date

by Cordelia in

ive just left the jws well got dfed a month ago!

but family want me back so im trying to prove to myself that it isnt true, top get the strength not to go back,i heard the 607 date may be false, can anyone show me about that, i know exactly what the jws say and cant believe the intial date is wrong, is it?

Robert_V_Frazier

JW visitor said that 607 is BIBLICAL and 587 is a date worked out by Historians who have assumed wrongly.

It's very important to always remember there are no absolute dates anywhere in the Bible. They didn't have a standard calendar that deals in years with a fixed reference point, as we do with B.C./A.D. All dates are given as relative to important events -- the 3rd year of this king, the year that king died, the year the emperor took a census for taxation purposes, etc. All actual dates in terms of B.C./A.D. in reference to the Bible are all dates established by secular chronology -- there is no biblical chronology. We can and do link Bible relative dates to the secular chronology, which can be and is linked to our system of B.C./A.D. A huge help in this is the detailed chronology of the neo-babylonian empire, with its detailed king lists, which can be dated with great precision because, unlike the Bible writers, the neo-babylonians were obsessed with the "importance" of solar and lunar eclipses. They made very precise observations of them, and dated them by the reigns of their kings, just as the Bible writers date events by the Israelite kings and certain Roman emperors. The timing of solar and lunar eclipses is a matter of simple mathematics for astronomers, so we know exactly when the neo-babylonian kings ruled. And the Bible tells us which Israelite kings were ruling at the same time as which neo-babylonian kings, so from that, we can work out when the kings in the Bible ruled.

The 607 date is fantasy, based on insanity. The 587-586 (end of 587, beginning of 586 -- the date is exact within a month, but not to the day) date is an unarguable FACT, based on science, history, and the Bible. Only a brainwashed JW could examine the evidence and reach any other conclusion. Most JW's accept the Society's lie about 607 on blind faith in the Society, not on any examination of the facts. Hardly the fault of the majority of JW's; the evidence is more than a little hard to follow (if you even know where to look, and not many do), and the Society never gives any reason for the 607 date. They just dump it on the unsuspecting JW's and tell them to believe it, or else.

Robert V Frazier

Robert_V_Frazier

Posts by Robert_V_Frazier