this may already have been posted, but if not i am sure that carl jonsson will forgive my linking his review of furuli's book from another site,.
http://user.tninet.se/~oof408u/fkf/english/furulirev.htm .
best regards - hs.
"Scholar":
I posed a question to you on another board, which you ignored. I'll pose it again.
You tout educational credentials with great confidence. My question to you was about one of Furuli's own countrymen who is a former JW and has somewhat the same educational credentials that you claim.
How do you regard the religious perspective of former poster on this site known as JH (or JanH), a Norwegian (as is Furuli) who has a masters in degree in religious studies.
Just curious.
~Ros
at what stage of recovery are you?
are you angry?
are you depressed?
Thank you, Uzzah, bem, and onocruze:
Uzzah, thank you for your kind words. Would I know you by another handle from H2O? :-)
bem: The thing to realize is that your life IS BETTER for recognizing "the Lie" that parades itself as "The Truth". You are to be commended for the courage to do that, and the reward will come in the liberation of your conscience. The WT shunning policy is their greatest weapon and, imo, their greatest sin. But remember Jesus words in Matt.12: " 48 He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."
While I realize this is not a viable substitute for blood family and life-long friends to many, as you have already discovered it is better than living "The Lie(tm)" There is a rich and fruitful life in honesty--you just have to follow the path. In my experience, you can find wonderful friends among the people who have left the WT, who can relate to your experience. Hang in there, it gets better as you go if you "accentuate the positive", as the song goes. Look ahead, not back.
Ironically, my family experience was somewhat the reverse: I was shunned, to some extent, for becoming a JW. :-) But I was willing to deal with that for what I believed. For that realization, I'm not sorry. Although it was misguided at the time, I can now realize that I was willing to place my conscience at a higher value than approval of family. I take pride in that. So can you now. We're just on different sides of the same coin. (My mother still somewhat holds it against me that I got my brother involved in JWs. He died from complications with diabetes, mainly because he did not take the proper care of his condition since Armageddon was always just around the corner in the next few months.)
onocruze: Thanks for your warm thoughts. The more I see, the more I wonder if the *real* healing for some may still be in the wake, (that is, in *waking* up from the myths of the other extreme)--in time.
Blessings,
~Ros
just moments ago i was on the back deck looking at the stars and a renter next door came out to do the same.
i said hello and we talked about where we were from and where we are at, spiritually.
after a few clues the neighbor asked if i had accepted jesus as my personal savior.
Hey, Jst2Laws:
I rest my case. ;-)))
Blessings,
~Ros
today is my parent's 60th anniversary!
i am so happy and proud for them.
it takes a lot to make it that long, especially when you have to raise wild kids like me and my sister were.
Hi, Randy:
I am always warmed about a marriage that seems to be what it should be.
CONGRATULATIONS for your parents and your family. You are right to be proud.
Blessings,
~Ros
at what stage of recovery are you?
are you angry?
are you depressed?
Jst2Laws:
What a great thread!
Like you, I was a convert--not born-in-it. In many respects I think it is a different experience for converts.
At age 18, after "back-sliding" from "the Truth" in the mainstream fundamentalist "born-again" denominations (Church of Christ and Baptist genres), by going to movies (Walt Disney's Cinderella), wearing lipstick, and getting a part-time job as an usherette in a movie theatre, I believed with all sincerity that I was doomed to spend eternity being tortured in a burning hell. That is the belief of people who adhere to hell-fire doctrine denominations. So people just have to excuse me that I don't consider Jehovah's Witnesses to be the worst belief system in religion. :-)
Believing that I was doomed, I never-the-less loved the Creator and goodness, and did not blame God for my failure to be "good." I wanted to work to save as many souls from going to eternal torture (Hell) as possible. I was looking for the one "true religion" to serve God and goodness, even though I was doomed for Hell (since there remained no more sacrifice for me--I had known the truth and returned to my wicked ways (Heb.10:26) for going to movies, working in a theater, and wearing makeup, etc.--age 17-18).
When I heard that JWs did not believe in War and Christmas (I had concluded that Jesus and Santa Claus had nothing in common), I contacted them. I began a study with two other "pioneer" converts, and the first topic we covered was Hell. I studied that topic very deeply, with great interest, and to this day it amazes me how un-studied most JWs/exJWs are on that subject. That was THE subject I had to be convinced of before considering the religion's other doctrines. With studies daily, lasting hours each day, I was convinced this was IT within 3 weeks. I attended my first assembly--a district assembly with Knorr and FredFranz and Covington, etc. within a month, and was baptized at my first district assembly within 3 months. My mentor thought it was premature for me to be baptized because she said I did not fully comprehend the meaning that this was "Jehovah's organization". I now realize--though she did not realize it--that she meant I had not come under the mindset of accepting everything without question. I was not under the mind control. That early baptism may be what kept me from going under it.
Early on, I began to notice with dismay that JWs did not "prove" everything that came out in the Watchtower. JWs who were raised in the religion did not "prove" anything--they just accepted. They believed with all faith at that time that the Watchtower never had wrong information. It was not to be questioned. I was amazed that many life-time JWs could not disprove the basic doctrines that had been disproved to me in my "studies". The first thing that bothered me was the "blind faith." After a couple years of enthusiasm, I drifted into "waiting for new light" and over the next 16 years a gradual withdrawl that finally ended when a certain situation that was certain to result in a sister being DF'd, and I woke up. No more waiting for "new light"--I finally had to admit to myself this religion was not "the Truth". It was not a welcome or easy admission. I had really wanted it to be "the Truth". I had a log of egg on my face for people I had "witnessed to" and practically condemned.
I'm one who is glad I was a JW, glad I had that experience. Otherwise I would have believed it could not happen to me. Yes, intelligent people can believe incredible things. I once did a seminar at a BRCI conference, with a group of embittered exJWs, in which I posed questions in three categories: 1) Sorry I was a JW; 2) Not sorry I was a JW; and 3) Glad I was a JW.
The questions in "Sorry I was a JW" had things like missed education, missed popular activities in school, could have had a better job, etc. The questions in "Not sorry" were along the line of: I might have gotten an education but didn't know at that age what I wanted to be; most people don't do the things they can look back on and see they should have done; we probably would not have made the right decisions or any better decisions, etc. The last category "Glad I was a JW" had questions like, I would not have met my mate, or had my children; I might have gone to war and killed people--or had children or loved ones who did. Or got wounded/crippled. I might have gotten mixed up in drugs or immorality, etc.
The bottom-line question being, do people who were never JWs really, on average, live that much better of a life? Don't we all--JWs, exJWs, never-been-JWs--tend to look back and wish we had made different decisions. Would our decisions have really been the better life we now imagine we would have led if we had not been a JW. To my great surprise, and those who were in the workshop, the winning category turned out to be "Glad I was a JW" (and left, of course).
Some problems I see with people coming out of a long life of JWism is that they become convinced they missed a lot. Most that I see tend to embrace some other ideology (religious, anti-religious, social, amoral, or political). They nurture a concept that they would have had a wonderful life if they had not been a JW (in spite of the fact that most non-JWs do not have an extraordinary wonderful life). Sure we MIGHT have pursued some better education and career opportunties, but don't forget the bad stuff that we stayed away from too. Which is better? Who can say.
In my opinion, I think the luckiest people are people who were JWs, left JWs, and make the best of the rest of their life for what they learned from the experience. Some get better educations after leaving than they would have if they had never been JWs. We have the opportunity to have insight that only people who have succumbed to a mind-control ideology can understand.
Besides, my best friends in this world are exJWs. And the only way to be an exJW is to first be a JW. :-)
Blessings,
~Ros
there is no need to address all the knotty pharasaical arguments used by the watchtower to defend their blood policy.
mark got the point jesus was making in the 7th chapter of mark.
"thus he declared all foods clean".
Hi, Proplog2:
Your insights--or should I say "progress"--are interesting. :-)
Blessings,
to those who consider themselves christian.... is it possible to be a christian without being 'born again'?.
did you get baptised again after leaving jws?.
confused.... ken.
Grace:
Check your message in-box. :-)
~Ros
to those who consider themselves christian.... is it possible to be a christian without being 'born again'?.
did you get baptised again after leaving jws?.
confused.... ken.
LittleToe:I tend to agree in principle with just about everything you responded to my post. Very nicely stated, too. While I still think Jesus was trying to describe spirit resurrection to Nicodemus, you're right that there are some places where terms like "rebirth" etc. are applied as to the present repentant condition, though I tend to think of that as figurative. The example I have used at times is:
Suppose we were in circumstances of being stranded on a remote deserted island in the ocean. We HOPE that we will be found and saved. After some months, a ship appears on the horizon, and it becomes bigger and bigger until it is obvious that the ship is coming to the island. We shout: "We are saved! We are saved!"
Now, we have FAITH that we are found and will be saved. But in our faith we already feel saved even though the reality will be when we have been removed from the island and arrived safe and cozy at home. Is that how you might also differentiate hope and faith?
My point about "personal relationship" not being in the Bible, although I agree with the principle, is that I tend to avoid terminology not contained in Scripture that lends to being identified with certain sects of Christianity. So I don't usually use that particular phrase in defining my spiritual relationship with God--as I did with that caveat in our discussion.
Yeru:Back when I was JW-baptised, it was in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Grace:
How are you, love? I didn't get cards sent out this year, so don't think I forgot you. You wrote:
Hi ros nice to see you here.It has been a long time .Least a year--last Xmas I think. :-)
I think Little Toe has a real handle on the word IMHO.You mean "born again"? Yes, I understand that is the evangelical position. To be honest, I don't know anyone else in the world who has come to the conclusion that I did about the term. (How's that for an independent "personal relationship"? :-D))) However, I've presented the thought to some folks who say the idea is definitely viable. I have no idea how orthodox views the term.
That is one of the reasons I stopped attending BRCI -They did seem to think they were Christians when they were JWs.In fact I have a tape where Ron Frye even stated this.(You can hear my response to him on it also...I dont think any JWs are Christians.)Well, as you know, that is a reason why some of us are not excited about the Pennsylvania group. I do believe I was a Christian when I was a JW, albeit my convert perception of the whole experience was vastly different from that of people raised in the religion. I had already been taught about Christ, and the ladies who were my mentors were the same as me--out of evangelical religion before they were JWs. Early in my Bible study I was taught that Jehovah's Witnesses were progressive in their Bible study. We (converts) delved deep into the doctrine of hell first, then soul, and then trinity. I still agree with the Adventist conclusions on those doctrines. My general experience has been that most JWs didn't study doctrine to the degree that we converts out of other religions did. (I didn't want to be wrong about Hell ! That was the biggee in my day--not trinity.) The reason I was taught that we did not dwell week after week on preaching salvation through Christ over and over is stated at Hebrews 6:1:
Therefore let us go on toward perfection, leaving behind the basic teaching about Christ, and not laying again the foundation: repentance from dead works and faith toward God, instruction about baptisms, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And we will do this, if God permits.Consequently, while Christ was always in my perception as the redeemer and mediator between me and Jehovah, because I had already been taught of Jesus since early childhood (been "born again" twice), it never occurred to me that people raised in JWs would not have a basis to perceive Christ as I did.
To be a Christian one must be a follower Of Christ.Obviously JW are followers of OLD MEN...I was also one of those .I was not. And I was often criticised for it, too. I never believed the Watchtower over the Bible--ever! Many JWs did not consider me to be a real JW or a Christian. So I guess I'm really caught in between--JWs don't consider me Christian, Evangelicals don't consider me Christian, they don't consider each other Christian. . . all I've got is my "personal relationship". Well, I kinda like it that way.
I thought Jesus was Micheal the Ark Angel. NOT!!!!To me, it's immaterial whether Jesus was Michael or not. It's whom He is raised to be after his sojourn on earth that matters. HOWEVER--I believe this firmly: That if a person with the best of intentions concludes that the Bible teaches that Jesus was Michael before He came to earth, that belief does not preclude him/her from being a Christian, or conforming to the teachings of Jesus, and I do not believe God will torture such one for eternity. Conversely, if Jesus was Michael, I do not believe it precludes trinitarians from being Christians and I do not believe God will torture them for their error--UNLESS they are to be judged as they judged. (Maybe we should pray that whomever is wrong, forgive them Lord, for they know not . . .)
I do hope your well.Doing very well. My mom is moved here and is in assisted living. I'm her guardian, so have that added responsibility. Believe it or not, have started a new career at my age. Never would have thought, but feel really lucky.
Jim called the other day... I am still in touch with him & DanIs Jim in Canada now? I haven't talked with him in a while--since spring. I know he was planning a trip through Europe, but didn't know whether he made it. I've been waiting to hear about his book, whether it has been published yet. I did get a call from Richard Rawe yesterday. He's going to be hosting a conference (imagine that) in Washington where I was a JW. He said AlanF is coming to debate another fellow on creationism. They're trying to get Greg Stafford to come as well.
Will you be at the next BRCI...???Yes. I missed it last year because I hadn't accrued vacation leave yet. But I'm planning to make it this year. I might like to try to do a graphical presentation on ancient Israel--if they might be interested. :-)
sorry to steal the thread for my questions...((HUG)))
Hey, everyone, my apologies too. Sorry for treating this like Chat. Nice diversion for us, though, huh Grace?-- since it has been a while. Hugs to you, too, love.
Blessings,
~Ros
to those who consider themselves christian.... is it possible to be a christian without being 'born again'?.
did you get baptised again after leaving jws?.
confused.... ken.
LittleToe:
Just to make sure I didn't give a false impression, let me quote myself:
I agree with you that Christianity is a "personal relationship" (term not in the Bible) rather than association with any organization or doctrinal beliefs.
You said:
Ros:Personal relationship:
(Jesus words - "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." - John 17:3 KJV)"Know" (ginosko) means more than just "Accurate Knowledge", as the JW's portray. It has a personal quality.
Here is how the Amplified Bible (AMP) renders John 17:3:
John 17
3 And this is eternal life: [it means] to know (to perceive, recognize, become acquainted with, and understand) You, the only true and real God, and [likewise] to know Him, Jesus [as the] Christ (the Anointed One, the Messiah), Whom You have sent.
I had not thought about this text in the way I think you are expressing it--that is, as meaning salvation is held now (in the past tense)? I think of the word "know" in this scripture as carrying more depth than just "I know Him." While I agree with you, as I said, that Christianity is a personal relationship with God--a spiritual one--and I agree that to know someone has a personal quality (not necessarily a personal relationship), I'm not sure I am getting the point. Does your point agree with the scriptural points I mentioned. If not, how does it differ?
Jesus and the apostles frequently used the term "inherit" or "inheritance" with reference to salvation, again usually in the future tense (e.g., "will inherit", not "have inherited." Examples:
Ephesians 1:13,14:
Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.Colossians 3:24
... since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.
You said:
Salvation gained while physically alive:
There are examples of this in the Old Testament, too, such as the Psalms and the prophets (e.g. Isaiah and Jeremiah).
Maybe I'm confused by semantics. Christ was the "first fruits" of salvation. I'm distinguishing between salvation and the hope of salvation. Do you believe Christ's kingdom was established while he was on earth or after His death and resurrection?
What OT examples are you referring to?
Where does faith come in? If I own a precious treasure, knowing that I have it is not faith. What I have now does not require faith. But if I'm promised a treasure as a reward for something, and I believe the promise, then I do what is necessary on faith. It's faith because I don't have it yet, but I believe I will. This can apply to inheritance, too.
It's not just a "Fundamentalist" or "Born Again Denomination" teaching, it's pretty much mainstream, especially in Calvinist circles.
IMHO, an assurance of salvation leads one to act out of love instead of fear. It seems far more in line with the concept of a God of love, rather than one who expects us to ever live up to something we can't live up to.
I apologize if it seems my reference to "fundamentalist" or "born-again denomination" sounds critical or demeaning--I don't mean it that way. I simply don't know what would be a term that distinguishes the general group of church denominations who more or less share the same view about "born again," the experience of getting "saved" in a Holy Spirit experience by asking Jesus to come into their heart, and are similar in the way they express their faith. I consider orthodox Christianity mainstream (e.g., Catholic, Lutherans, Methodists and Presbyterians). I think you'll agree that they differ from mainstream Baptists, Pentecostals, Church of Christ, Nazerenes, and in recent years a lot of so-called "non-denominational" churches, which are the general class of churches I refer to as "fundamentalists" or "born-again denominations" because people tend to understand those definitions. Then there are Adventist groups. And again there are the Quakers, Mennonites, Amish, which are collectively another general classification. I mean no disrespect for any of these groups.
It's also not clear why you might think I'm describing a God who expects more of people than what they are capable of.
Jesus said the widow's mite was more than the treasures given by the rich. On the other hand, I don't believe God tortures people for eternity because they didn't ask Jesus to come into their heart.
Thanks for your perspective, though. I find it fascinating to see how others interpret scripture
I agree with that. I accept (dare I say that "f" word) denominations, as well as many others, even us non-church-goers, as Christian. I was impressed by a minister in the Church of the Brethren in my town. Church of the Brethren used to be much like the Quakers and Mennonites and Anabaptists. They reformed and now they promote no doctrine except Christ as Lord and pacificism. This particular minister's congregation sponsored an Islamic family to come to this country some years ago, and he was telling me how the family visited their church occasionally out of appreciation. He said, "You see, we accept them as our brothers in Christ." Now I think that is the spirit of Christianity. What Christians need to be careful about, imo, is judgmentalness.
Blessings,
~Ros
to those who consider themselves christian.... is it possible to be a christian without being 'born again'?.
did you get baptised again after leaving jws?.
confused.... ken.
LittleToe:One of the ways I find that the Bible speaks to me in a more revealing way, at least seems so to me, is to avoid all terminology derived from church doctrines that are not contained in the Bible itself, and which imo carry a preconceived doctrinal notion. If one believes the Bible to be inspired, then they should also believe that God stated what is necessary for salvation without added definitions not contained therein. Having said that, I agree with you that Christianity is a "personal relationship" (term not in the Bible) rather than association with any organization or doctrinal beliefs. But I also think the term "born again", which IS a term by Jesus in the Scriptures, is referring to spirit resurrection, not confession of Christ as savior and on-going relationship with Him. The term is simply not used in that way.
The cross-doctrine from two terms that are in the Bible, "born again" and "saved" in the past-tense, is fundamentalist doctrine that I find no Scriptural basis for, and which leads some to judgmental belief.
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archangel01: I understand quite well the "born-again" church doctrine (not withstanding individual variations), I just don't agree with that concept; that is, being in the past tense. I'll re-quote your scripture to support my point:
2Corinthians cha 5 vs 1-10. I love the wording in vs 3 "For we will not be spirits without bodies, but we will put on new heavenly bodies.
Notice: 1) That they "...will not be spirits without bodies, but we will..." is definitely future tense.
2) what they will put on (future tense, not past) is heavenly bodies (i.e., the kind they will have when resurrected that can enter the spirit realm wherein the kingdom of God is).
=======================
ClassAvenger: Again, you have stated the doctrine very well. However, I tend to disagree with the interpretation your doctrine applies in this:
The water does not mean baptism, thats the Roman Catholic church interpretation of this passage and so they baptize all the children when they are born. To be born from water is to receive God's grace. The water symbolizes His grace for us, look at Ezekiel 36:25. It is a metaphorical sense of the word.
My interpretations do not come from Roman Catholic (a denomination I have never personally experienced). I'll simply quote some scriptural texts that seem to not support the popular "born again" doctrine imo:
20 ??In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him. (1Pet.3:20-22 NIV)
Romans 6:4
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
The "born again" doctrine goes hand-in-hand with the "have you been saved" doctrine. This use of "past tense" is what prompts the Baptist doctrine of "once saved always saved". Rarely in scripture is the term "saved" used in other than future tense (i.e., "will be saved", as opposed to "have been saved"). Example (just one of many many) is Jesus words in Matt.10:22 and 24:13: "He that endures to the end will be saved." Do a look-up on the term "saved" in the NT and you'll see what I mean. One example of "saved" in the present/passive tense ("are being saved") is Paul's words at 1Cor.1:18 and 2:15. An example of "saved" in the past tense is at Romans 8:24 where Paul says:
but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.--Romans 8:23-25 NIV~Ros
