Rivergang

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Posts by Rivergang

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  112

  Afghanistan-Kabul falls to Taliban - U.S. Embassy staff evacuated by helicopter

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in a scene reminiscent of the fall of saigon, the usa embassy staff have been evacuated by helicopter.. for a third time in asia ( a fourth, if you count usa supported chiang kai shek's defeat in mainland china) usa supported forces have been defeated.

  more than 1 trillion dollars wasted and a huge deathtoll (both sides) afghanistan is back to where it started,.

  will the taliban behave differently this time ?

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  Rivergang

  And back in the day, we all thought that their evacuation of Saigon was a complete b@ll$-Up!
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  112

  Afghanistan-Kabul falls to Taliban - U.S. Embassy staff evacuated by helicopter

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in a scene reminiscent of the fall of saigon, the usa embassy staff have been evacuated by helicopter.. for a third time in asia ( a fourth, if you count usa supported chiang kai shek's defeat in mainland china) usa supported forces have been defeated.

  more than 1 trillion dollars wasted and a huge deathtoll (both sides) afghanistan is back to where it started,.

  will the taliban behave differently this time ?

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  Rivergang

  During its 10 years in Afghanistan, the Soviet Union controlled the major urban centres of the country, and was usually able to use the highways that connect these together, although even that could not always be guaranteed. (Soviet motor traffic did risk being ambushed when it travelled those roads).

  As for the remainder of Afghanistan - which makes up the large majority of its surface area - the best that can be said is that this was "contested". All too often, Soviet soldiers "controlled" the ground immediately below their army boots, but very little else.

  Diverging a little now, but the matter of WWII has been raised by other, so a few comments about that are appropriate. The fact is, during the early stages of the war against Japan, none of the Western allies fought particularly well. (Jungle warfare was something that had previously been hardly thought of, and only the Japanese were in any way prepared for it). The debacle at the British "fortress" of Singapore is well known, and the ease with which the Japanese over ran all European territories in South East Asia quickly led to them gaining the reputation of being supermen.

  Included in that list of Allied forces who initially performed badly against the Japanese are those of the United States. Despite being full of bravado when first deployed to New Guinea, US army units broke and ran during their first encounter with the Japanese. (For a full description of these events, Lex Macaulay's To the Bitter End is an informative read). According to the memoirs of Lieutenant General George Kenny (USAAF), when the Commander of Allied Land Forces in the SW Pacific Command, General Thomas Blamey, was asked what reinforcements he wanted to finish clearing the Japanese from the north Papuan Coast area, he said bluntly "Australians, because I know they will fight".

  Also, Japan's first defeat on land occurred in the Milne Bay area of what is now Papua New Guinea. That defeat was inflicted on them by Australian forces - some of whom (the 61st Battalion of the Australian militia) were regarded as decidedly second rate troops. (Another very informative read is Peter Brune's A Bastard of a Place - Australian Operations in Papua, in which the Battle of Milne Bay is described in detail).

  Concurrent with that battle was an epic campaign fought along the Kokoda Track in New Guinea. Anybody that has read the history of that campaign, in which the Japanese were halted within just one day's march of Port Moresby, could hardly use the word "soft" to describe the Australian and Papuan personnel who took part in it. Even today, it is quite a challenge just to trek through the Owen Stanley Ranges from Ower's Corner in the south to Kokoda village to the north. One can only imagine the difficulties of carrying out military operations at the same time.

  To be fair on everybody, Allied forces soon adapted to jungle warfare, and then proved themselves more than adequate for the task. (This includes the British 14th Army that cleared the Japanese out of Burma, and particularly the special forces, the "Chindits" under Major General Orde Wingate).
  
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  112

  Afghanistan-Kabul falls to Taliban - U.S. Embassy staff evacuated by helicopter

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in a scene reminiscent of the fall of saigon, the usa embassy staff have been evacuated by helicopter.. for a third time in asia ( a fourth, if you count usa supported chiang kai shek's defeat in mainland china) usa supported forces have been defeated.

  more than 1 trillion dollars wasted and a huge deathtoll (both sides) afghanistan is back to where it started,.

  will the taliban behave differently this time ?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Rivergang

  Justaguy,

  There are two ways in which an enemy can be defeated. One is by straight out destruction of his forces on the battlefield. The other is by more subtle means - destruction of his will to fight.

  Invariably, any power that has ever attempted to occupy Afghanistan has ended up falling prey to that second one. They can indeed win a series of battlefield victories, but which still don't bring the conflict to a definite conclusion. Their (Afghan) enemies just will never oblige by handing over their rifles and simply giving up the ghost!

  This is not at all unique, either, to Afghanistan. When you follow the history of any successful guerrilla type war, you can see the same pattern. One example is the Tet offensive in Vietnam (January-February 1968) that resulted in a heavy battlefield defeat for the Communist forces, yet sufficiently unnerved America and its allies that they lost the will to continue the conflict. Another example is the Algerian War of Independence. During that conflict (1954 - 1962), the FLN suffered a decisive military defeat; yet in the process of handing out that military defeat, the French nation lost its will to keep up the charade in Algeria.

  Such "low-intensity" conflicts can never be won by military means alone. That seems to be a lesson the USA, in particular, has failed to learn over and over again.

  The British Empire, during its time, achieved some notable victories in Afghanistan. In the Second Afghan War of 1878-1880, Lord Roberts won a brilliant victory at Peiwar Kotal. Later, with a 10,000 man force, he carried out an epic 300 mile forced march to lift the siege of Kandahar - an event which was concluded by yet another decisive battlefield victory. However, by that time, the British at least had the smarts enough not to attempt to colonise the country. Their forces were withdrawn, and from that point onwards, Britain used more subtle means to advance its interests in Afghanistan.
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  112

  Afghanistan-Kabul falls to Taliban - U.S. Embassy staff evacuated by helicopter

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in a scene reminiscent of the fall of saigon, the usa embassy staff have been evacuated by helicopter.. for a third time in asia ( a fourth, if you count usa supported chiang kai shek's defeat in mainland china) usa supported forces have been defeated.

  more than 1 trillion dollars wasted and a huge deathtoll (both sides) afghanistan is back to where it started,.

  will the taliban behave differently this time ?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  Rivergang

  The below cartoon was recently published in a New Zealand newspaper, and sums up the inevitable conclusion of any foreign occupation of Afghanistan. Blame any political leader you like, but the result was going to be inevitable, even before it started.

  
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  11

  CNN reporter: They're chanting 'death to America!' but they seem friendly at the same time

  by LoveUniHateExams in

  1. social
  2. current

  i can't actually post the clip because i'm in a public library and their administrator won't let me find the clip.. but, a cnn woman reporter apparently on the ground in kabul, in full hijab, actually says the above clip.. please, please please, may the clip be just a parody, lol..

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  Rivergang

  Don't rely on western media to be honest about what is actually going on in Kabul.

  In that Machiavellian world of the Middle East, honesty is a very scarce commodity; things are very seldom ever as they may first appear to be.

  A good litmus test is to consider whether or not that spokesman were to gain any advantage by telling the truth. If this were to confer to them no tangible benefit, the odds are almost certain that they aren't speaking truthfully.

  While that may seem a biased outlook on things, one needs to carefully consider the merits of the three main methods of discovery:

  i.e.

  (i) Listen and comply with a spoken warning.

  (ii) Read and comply with a written warning.

  (iii) Or .... urinate on the electric fence and find out for your bloody self!

  (No apologies for throwing in a bit of farm-spun wisdom)
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  112

  Afghanistan-Kabul falls to Taliban - U.S. Embassy staff evacuated by helicopter

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in a scene reminiscent of the fall of saigon, the usa embassy staff have been evacuated by helicopter.. for a third time in asia ( a fourth, if you count usa supported chiang kai shek's defeat in mainland china) usa supported forces have been defeated.

  more than 1 trillion dollars wasted and a huge deathtoll (both sides) afghanistan is back to where it started,.

  will the taliban behave differently this time ?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Rivergang

  And they reckon withdrawal isn't defeat!
• 
  112

  Afghanistan-Kabul falls to Taliban - U.S. Embassy staff evacuated by helicopter

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in a scene reminiscent of the fall of saigon, the usa embassy staff have been evacuated by helicopter.. for a third time in asia ( a fourth, if you count usa supported chiang kai shek's defeat in mainland china) usa supported forces have been defeated.

  more than 1 trillion dollars wasted and a huge deathtoll (both sides) afghanistan is back to where it started,.

  will the taliban behave differently this time ?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Rivergang

  Me.Wonderful

  
  
  
• 
  112

  Afghanistan-Kabul falls to Taliban - U.S. Embassy staff evacuated by helicopter

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in a scene reminiscent of the fall of saigon, the usa embassy staff have been evacuated by helicopter.. for a third time in asia ( a fourth, if you count usa supported chiang kai shek's defeat in mainland china) usa supported forces have been defeated.

  more than 1 trillion dollars wasted and a huge deathtoll (both sides) afghanistan is back to where it started,.

  will the taliban behave differently this time ?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Rivergang

  All the Taliban did was just wait till the American went home. They hardly even engaged western forces, so I wouldn't say it was a military defeat.

  Classic guerrilla warfare tactics

  • When your enemy attacks, you retreat.
  • When your enemy reaches the limit of his advance, you begin harassing him (using snipers, roadside bombs, booby traps and similar measures).
  • When your enemy retreats, then you attack.

  The whole idea is to make it a "protracted campaign", so that your enemy (particularly if it is a Western power) eventually loses the stomach for the fight. Every power that has attempted to occupy Afghanistan has learned this - usually the hard way!

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  112

  Afghanistan-Kabul falls to Taliban - U.S. Embassy staff evacuated by helicopter

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in a scene reminiscent of the fall of saigon, the usa embassy staff have been evacuated by helicopter.. for a third time in asia ( a fourth, if you count usa supported chiang kai shek's defeat in mainland china) usa supported forces have been defeated.

  more than 1 trillion dollars wasted and a huge deathtoll (both sides) afghanistan is back to where it started,.

  will the taliban behave differently this time ?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Rivergang

  Without our military presence you and the rest of your European cohorts would be speaking german.

  It was an Allied effort that defeated Nazi Germany.

  • Britain keeping the fight going for 12 months, during which it stood all alone (up until when Hitler made the mistake of attacking the Soviet Union).
  • The various resistance groups in occupied Europe (such as the Norwegian one, which destroyed the German's heavy water plant, and thus stopped Hitler from developing a nuclear weapon).
  • The much-maligned Soviet Union. Germany's back was broken on the Eastern Front, while the Western Allies mounted a largely ineffective strategic bombing campaign on the German war effort. (Despite an intensifying aerial bombardment on German industry between 1942 and 1944, its war production - tanks, submarines, aircraft, small arms, ammunition etc - just kept on increasing. Thanks largely to the genius of the Nazi's Minister of War Production, Albert Speer, German industry effectively thumbed its nose at the Allied strategic bombing campaign). By the time the Western Allies opened the "Second Front" in June of 1944, the Wermacht was already well and truly on the run in the East.

  • And, of course, the USA. Fair to say that once the American industrial system got fully geared for war production, that put the seal on things.

  However, it must be stressed that it took an allied effort to defeat Hitler. The USA did not win the war all on its own, as you were trying to suggest.

  
  
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  112

  Afghanistan-Kabul falls to Taliban - U.S. Embassy staff evacuated by helicopter

  by fulltimestudent in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in a scene reminiscent of the fall of saigon, the usa embassy staff have been evacuated by helicopter.. for a third time in asia ( a fourth, if you count usa supported chiang kai shek's defeat in mainland china) usa supported forces have been defeated.

  more than 1 trillion dollars wasted and a huge deathtoll (both sides) afghanistan is back to where it started,.

  will the taliban behave differently this time ?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Rivergang

  Anon,

  With all due respect, you do need to check your history, starting with Pol Pot. He was nothing to do with Vietnam; he was the leader of the communist faction (known as the "Khmer Rouge") in a neighbouring country, Cambodia. Early in 1975, the Khmer Rouge completed their overthrow of the pro-Western government of Marshal Lon Nol, when they captured the capital city, Phnom Penh.

  Secondly, it was Richard Nixon who pulled US combat troops out of Vietnam. (Although, it must be said, after the Tet Offensive of February 1968, nobody had any further thoughts about winning the war - only about how America could best extricate itself from the debacle).

  Nixon and his Secretary of State, Henry Kissinger, coined the term "Vietnamisation" of the war, in which - similar to Afghanistan - the local military were to progressively take over the fight. I can remember it like it was yesterday when the first US troop withdrawals took place during the latter part of 1969, and all the fanfare that was made of that event.

  1969 was the first year of Nixon's presidency - and it was he that initiated the withdrawal of US combat troops, not LBJ.