Posts by Sangdigger

27

DID AN ELDER EVER HELP YOU?

by minimus in

jw
friends

there are so many horror stories about elders.

many people dislike or can't stand elders, in general.

a number here have been truly hurt by some.

Theres no doubt that there were and are some really nice guys serving as elders, and some just absolute power hungry buttholes. But all in all, the ones who are really nice, cant take the pressure of treating individuals the way they are instructed too, and drop out, or go to the psych ward.

The ones i got close too when i was in the club, (org) would only go along with so much, before they cleared their throat and backed off. Basically they are all legalist with an agenda to carry out. But all too often they themselves are pawns used by the members to get their way in situations.

11

Witnesses attacked by demons!

by dsgal in

jw
friends

does anybody remember all those stories in the awake!

magazines about witnesses being attacked by demons?

i wonder why they never print anything of this nature anymore?

Sangdigger

Wow, aint it funny how this seems to be so common among JW's. Is this kind of stuff happen alot to regular people, or just JW's? Growing up i remember the same kind of stories. Kids my age burning rock albums that wouldnt burn, or dumping them in the trash can outside after cracking them up (the old wax albums before cd's) and then the next day they would be back in their bedrooms fully intact. (yeah right) Another ex-jw told me several years ago that when the WTS released info. on the smurfs, (calling them demonic) that several JW's reported seeing a smurf run across the stage at a district assembly!!! (Run Papa smurf!!!)

There was also a book written by a WTS staff member in Rutherfords day, that dealt with the fallen angels. It included pictures of them, ect....I remember my dad telling me that many witnesses got rid of the book because of demon problems. When i asked a few questions about the book a year ago or so, i was told that the society actually did not print the book, but basically it was written by a staff member, and Rutherford approved of it. (maybe someone reading this can shed a little more light on this)

Anyway, ive been around alot of other religions now that i am an adult, and i dont know of anyone group in particular as paranoid as the JW's when it comes to this stuff. You would think they would be more secure, if they trusted Jehovah as they say they do.

38

Try this poll one last time.

by Bleep in

poll#2.

since the last poll was trolled by some people lets do this one more time.

what is god?

Sangdigger

Ok bleep, im going to play along with this. Considering the options are very basic. Of course God is a spirit, and no one has seen him (in the flesh) in all his glory. Only his son (ITim 3:16) who incidentally came "in his name" and was the perfect representation of him IN THE FLESH. So im going with Sunshine Too's answer: #1 and #4. To say God is just a "Spirit" and nothing else, would be to say in effect, he is some uncaring supernatural phenominan floating around up there. And since we are created in his image, and we have feelings, we can in a sense say God is a person. The old testament is full of stories of God having "feelings for his people"

So when are you going to give the results of the test? Did anyone pass this time?

13

was adam and eve forgiven?

by Sangdigger in

this was the subject of a recent debate with myself and some jw family members.

i dont have all the info.

in front of me, but i will give you just two points that i used to lean toward the idea that they were in fact, forgiven.

Sangdigger

This was the subject of a recent debate with myself and some JW family members. I dont have all the info. in front of me, but i will give you just two points that i used to lean toward the idea that they were in fact, forgiven.

Number one: God stripped them of their fig leaves, and shed an animals blood, and clothed them with skins. The fig leaves pictured mans vain attempt to cover his own sin ( works), and the shedding of an animals blood was Gods provision, also picturing the comming atonement by Christ.

The reply i got on this one, was adam and eve were cold, and God gave them a better garment.

Number two: If they were not forgiven, where did Abel learn to sacrifice burnt offerings to God? I would say the obvious answer was his folks. Unless of course God communicated directly to him on this matter.

I was given a dogmatic answer that ABSOLUTELY NOT were they forgiven, since they were perfect.

Now i realize the scriptures arent super clear on this subject, but how can you be so dogmatic one way? It would seem the evidence would favor my stand .

WHAT THINK YE ON THIS MATTER? Just want some input......

31

WT says 'Church Fathers were leading teachers'

by youdontknowhim in

was it jehovahs witnesses who acknowledge the church father as leading teachers?

this is a very interesting statement by justin.

do you accept origen as an authority when he said jesus is our god?

Sangdigger

Rev Bill, yes, thats exactly what i did, in fact there are about 5 or 6 scriptures talking about "The foundation of the world," in fact 2Tim 1:9 says he called and chose us before the world BEGAN.

All these scriptures i quoted were to no avail. The WTS already etched in stone that God didnt know (because he chose not to know)the outcome of Adam and Eve, because if he knew the outcome before he created them, that would make him cruel. Because he would have had to forsee all the suffering down through the ages. (That was in the Watchtower article he sent me)

What blew my mind was the scripture they use to explain the "Foundation of the world" I dont have my bible handy, but i know it was in Luke. Jesus is talking to the pharisees, and he tells them they are responsible for the blood of the phrophets (and righteous men)wich was shed from the foundation of the world. And since Abel was the first one murdered, then the foundation of the world started with him.

In other words, the foundation of the world started with cain killing abel, and unrighteous men. So God chose Jesus to redeem us after cain killed abel. I argued to my father that nothing takes God by surprise, that he knows the ending from the beginning. All to no avail. My arguments fell on deaf ears.

I tried to tell him that the point being made in Luke, was not WHEN the foundation of the world was, but that their ancestors were murdering righteous men since the world began, or shortly thereafter.

72

A Cult

by Beans in

.

let us not forget how the watchtower views themselves!

edited by - beans on 10 august 2002 11:29:50.

Sangdigger

Europe, actually (cringe) they do have JW schools, although there are (were) so few of them, it wouldnt apply to what you were saying to bleep. I should know, because my wife attended one years ago in Az. The conditions were very competitive to "Worldly" schools. ie..drugs, alchohol, teen pregnancy, to name a few. So much so, they eventually closed the school down.

However i must point out in all fairness, that these JW schools were not officially endorsed by the WTS. But one had to be a child of a JW to attend.

72

A Cult

by Beans in

.

let us not forget how the watchtower views themselves!

edited by - beans on 10 august 2002 11:29:50.

Sangdigger

Truth2me, i was where you are now about 3 years ago. One of the first things i researched was the accuracy of the NWT. Of course what you said about certain key doctrinal scriptures being changed to fit the teachings of WT are correct. Most are deliberate, and some are a result of poor scholarship.

No doubt you are familiar with the ones that deal with Christs divinity, ect.....But one that comes to mind on poor scholarship is Matt. 27:52,53. Every translation that i have read indicates the bodies of these beleivers were raised to life, and went into town and appeared to many. However, the NWT (not due to any apparant prejiduce) says that the bodies did rise to the surface of the ground, but people passing by reported these bodies to people in town.

I have read the greek to english on this passage as well as many commentators and other translations, and NOWHERE is there any mention of PEOPLE PASSING BY THE CEMETARY. There is also an old testament scripture(at the moment it escapes me) that says"Together with my dead body, shall they arise." This seemed to point to this particular incident, after the ressurection of the Lord.

The italics bothered me as well. Like in Collosians 1:16 when it says"all (other) things were created by him." That to me is obviously deliberate. I own a copy of most translations now, as well as various bible programs on cd with commentarys.

But i also believe that the gospel is hidden to them (non-believers) not because of a poor translation, but due to their hard heartedness. (Isa.29:10, Rom.9:18) If God is pleased to reveal the truth to anyone, in my opinion, he could do it throught the NWT. No, i dont use the NWT anymore, because of the above things mentioned, but if it was the only bible i could get, i would certainly use it, because God will reveal the things neccesary for salvation to you if you ask him.

50

Should JESUS be worshipped or prayed to?

by LittleToe in

i want to consider this point, free from the trinity / arian debate.

there have been an abundance of threads that have deteriorated into these doctrine, and it clouds this issue because tempers get raised.. so, please, can we keep it simple.

should jesus receive our worship, right here, right now?.

Sangdigger

Isa. 9:6 "His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal FATHER

23

NWT. Question

by searcher in

the nwt is a trnslation of the bible.(jw).

the jw's believe that something is only true if there are two witnesses.. the question is... why do the jw's belive that the nwt is a 'true translation' when there is only one witness to it.

searcher.

Sangdigger

Did anybody realize that the KJV is the only Bible without a "copyright"?

3

NWT Question

by glitter in

a couple of years ago i got into an conversation with a pioneer about bible translations, i said that the nwt is an american translation (i didn't think this was such a controversial statement!

) and she jumped down my throat about it!

i said "but it's called the new world translation, and "new world" is what europeans used to call north america" and she said "no, it's the new-world translation - because it's for jehovah's witnesses and we will get through to the new system" and while i was trying to reason with her she also said it was a "new world-translation, it's a new translation for all the world".. has anybody else met somebody who thought this?

Sangdigger

Yeah, ive never heard that line before, but i think Random task has got it right. While any translation is Gods word, NWT is famous for twisting key doctrinal passages. Numerous posts have been made regarding this. I think my favorite one is Phillipians 2:6 NWT--"Who, although he was existing in Gods form, gave no consideration to a SEIZURE, namely, that he should be equal with God."