Posts by Sassenach

35

Is it Biblical to Shun??

by charlie in

jw
friends

i'm not a witness, but i know one very well and we have had many discussions on various topics.

we would both like to know, however, if it is biblical to shun the disfellowshipped/disassociated?

where in the bible does the society base the practice of shunning or groveling back for a long period of time if a person is sorry and wants to return to the church?

Sassenach

Waiting,

I'm sorry I didn't quote the Nelson's source. I was being lazy. Here it is.

Matt 18:15-17 Jesus teaches His disciples about the process of restoring an erring believer. ….the church then is to do everything possible to convince the believer who has sinned to be reconciled or to right the wrong. If the erring one will not respond, that person is to be cut off from the fellowship. Such a loss would be extremely painful to the offender.

They don't elaborate as to what constitutes extreme pain.

I do not take the bible literally, but prefer to understand it in terms of its cultural and historical context. Most of what I have read on the subject agrees that the first century christians practiced shunning.

John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

to look upon him as the Jews did one that disregarded both private reproof by a man's self, and that which was in the presence of one or two more, (twxp rbx) , "a worthless friend", or neighbour; as a Gentile, with whom the Jews had neither religious nor civil conversation; and a "publican", or as Munster's Hebrew Gospel reads it, (hrbe leb) "a notorious sinner", as a publican was accounted: hence such are often joined together, and with whom the Jews might not eat, nor keep any friendly and familiar acquaintance: and so such that have been privately admonished and publicly rebuked, without success,
their company is to be shunned, and intimate friendship with them to be avoided.

Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible

If he neglect to hear the church, if he slight the admonition, and will neither be ashamed of his faults, nor amend them, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and publican; let him be cast out of the communion of the church, secluded from special ordinances, degraded from the dignity of a church member, let him be put under disgrace, and let the members of the society be warned to withdraw from him, that he may be ashamed of his sin, and they may not be infected by it, or made chargeable with it.

(1cor.5-11, 2 thess. 3:6, 14, 15)

I prefer your undersanding of Jesus' statement, but what I have read proves otherwise, at least for me.

While I agree that the bible itself encourages shunning, I'm not completely convinced that it is the word of God. So, in my opinion, shunning is no more appropriate than a good wheeling.

Edited by - Sassenach on 21 January 2001 2:8:29

35

Is it Biblical to Shun??

by charlie in

jw
friends

i'm not a witness, but i know one very well and we have had many discussions on various topics.

we would both like to know, however, if it is biblical to shun the disfellowshipped/disassociated?

where in the bible does the society base the practice of shunning or groveling back for a long period of time if a person is sorry and wants to return to the church?

Sassenach

Waiting,

I have a nelson's study bible. Their explanation of the above scripture you quote, is that the consequences of leaving the congregation was to be extremely painful for the "offender". So, the jehovah's witnesses do have a biblical basis for their policy.

I don't believe that the statement is a contradiction. If he had said "treat them like lepers", the audience would understand the connotation. The fact that Jesus himself healed the lepers, wouldn't change the point he was making.

I do think there is a biblical basis for shunning, however, since I do not believe that Jesus has arrived to gather his sheep into one fold, shunning amounts to beating the other servants. There is no "congregation" to expel them from.

Sass

Edited by - Sassenach on 20 January 2001 17:55:43

4

Interesting post on surviving Armageddon

by Sassenach in

jw
friends

i found this post on the hourglass2outposts board.

it is essentially a copy of a watchtower magazine article with some snippets of commentary.

i'll place the link here, so you can read for yourselves the followups, but will also paste the article.. http://www.cyberpass.net/~h2o/wwwboard/messages/314729.html.

Sassenach

I've just been browing the watchtower's website. This goes well with the above material. It is from the brochure "What does God require of us?"

It states quite plainly:

"6. During Jesus' Thousand Year Reign, faithful humans will work to turn the whole earth into a paradise. (Luke 23:43) Also, millions of dead ones will be resurrected to human life on the earth. (Acts 24:15) If they do what God requires of them, they will continue to live on earth forever. If not, they will be destroyed forever.—John 5:28, 29; Revelation 20:11-15.

7. God's original purpose for the earth will thus succeed. Would you like to share in these future blessings? If so, you need to keep learning about Jehovah and obeying his requirements. Attending meetings at the local Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses will help you to do so.—Isaiah 11:9; Hebrews 10:24, 25.

These statements are direct and certainly make no attempt to beat around the bush! To live forever you must become one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

So why is it that some of jehovah's witnesses say they don't teach such a thing?

4

Interesting post on surviving Armageddon

by Sassenach in

jw
friends

i found this post on the hourglass2outposts board.

it is essentially a copy of a watchtower magazine article with some snippets of commentary.

i'll place the link here, so you can read for yourselves the followups, but will also paste the article.. http://www.cyberpass.net/~h2o/wwwboard/messages/314729.html.

Sassenach

I found this post on the Hourglass2outposts board. It is essentially a copy of a watchtower magazine article with some snippets of commentary. I'll place the link here, so you can read for yourselves the followups, but will also paste the article.

http://www.cyberpass.net/~h2o/wwwboard/messages/314729.html

Posted by JefferyMSchwehm [JefferyMSchwehm] on January 19, 2001 at 10:42:20 {dhk9LPTh/U7mGcjg8rgIMdud7girzQ}:

Hi gang-

Anyone who does not believe the Watchtower uses guilt, intimidation, and fear in order to motivate their followers need look
no further than the study articles in the 2/15/01 Watchtower. The overall message is basically, "All who do not listen to the
teachings of the Watchtower organization and apply them will be killed by God at Armaggeddon."

Here are some choice quotes:

"Zephaniah thus announced God's purpose to destroy Jerusalem, and this prophecy also pointed to the destruction of
Christendom. In fact, with God's day of judgment so near today, all the world should 'keep silent before the Sovereign Lord
Jehovah' and hear what he says through the "little flock" of Jesus' anointed followers and their companions, his "other
sheep"...Annihilation awaits all who will not listen and who therefore set themselves against rule by God's Kingdom." pp 14

"None would escape the proclamation and execution of divine judgment. Those complacent apostates had settled down like
dregs at the bottom of a wine vat. They did not want to be disturbed by an declaration of divine intervention in human affairs,
but they would not escape the execution of God's judgment upon them. There will also be no escape for present-day practicers
of false religion, including members of Christendom and those how have apostatized from Jehovah's worship."-pp 15

"For Judah there would be "a hurrying of Jehovah's day very much.' Similarly in our time, let no one think that the execution of
Jehovah's judgment upon the wicked will occur in the distant future. Rather, as God acted quickly in Judah, so he will "hurry"
his executional day...What a bitter time that will be for all who ignore Jehovah's warnings given by His Witnesses and who fail
to embrace true worship."-pp 16

Here is a really interesting quote which is reminiscent of the gory postings of You Know here on H20. In fact, as I read these
articles I wondered if these articles were contributed by You Know,...the delusional, junior member of the Faithful and Discreet
Slave who frequents this board.

"Theirs will be a disgraceful end indeed, for God will strew the bodies-even the entrails- of these wicked ones upon the earth,
"like the dung".-pp 17

"'Seeking Jehovah today' involves developing and maintaining a warm personal relationship with him in association with is
earthly organization."-pp 18

"Unscrupulous men slander Jehovah's Witnesses, branding them "a dangerous cult." God is aware of their actions-and these will
not go unpunished."-pp 20

"In these last days, it is Jehovah's Witnesses who call upon the name of Jehovah, who serve him unitedly in an unbreakable
bond of love-yes, "shoulder to shoulder." They are the ones to whom Jehovah has given the pure language. This pure language
includes a proper understanding of the truth about God and his purposes. Only Jehovah provides this understanding by means
of his holy spirit....To whom has he given his spirit? Only "to those obeying him as ruler."...Jehovah's Witnesses alone are willing
to obey God as Ruler in everything. That is why they are recipients of God's spirit and speak the pure language, the truth about
Jehovah and his marvelous purposes." pp.27

Jeff S.

7

Favorite Guitar players?

by Seven in

here's my 10: eric clapton, jimi hendrix, bb king, stevie ray vaughn,.

eddie van halen, george thorogood, johnny winter, rick derringer, jimmy page, brian may.

Sassenach

Brian May

Ritchie Sambora

Jeff Beck

Jimi Hendrix

Joe Satriani

Lenny Kravitz

Jeff Healy

Steve Vai

Jimmy Page

Slash

Mick Ronson

Eddie Van Halen

Frank Zappa

47

How about 10 favourite albums (er, cd's)

by amicus in

how about your 10 all time favourite cd's.

mine:.

beach boy's -pet sounds.

Sassenach

In no particular order:

(this is what I have been listneing to lately, I am sure I could think of another 50 or so of my favorites.)

Rush--Hemisperes

Nazareth's greatest hits

Guns and Roses--Appetite for Destruction

Paul McCartney and Wings--Band on the Run

Def Lepperd--Hysteria

Chris de Burgh--Spanish Train

Queen--A Night at the Opera

Lenny Kravitz Greatest Hits

Trooper--Hot Shots

Aerosmith--Permanent Vacation

Edited by - Sassenach on 19 January 2001 9:49:12

12

Playstation 2

by joel in

so does anybody ever talk gamein' around here!?.

playstation games are way cool!

ssx--fifa--smugglers run.

Sassenach

My favorite is Crash Bash. I don't have playstation2, just the regular one.

47

Platlets...can WTBTS policy be defended?

by joel in

jw
friends

if this topic has been addressed already...sorry...just ignore it.... if not...i would like to hear from those who would defend this policy....or who see the inconsistencies in the views on blood but the wtbts.. .

the following is something i read on at another site.

there is no question that the watchtower's blood policy needlessly kills jw children.

Sassenach

Thank you Xandit, I appreciate the extra details. Frankly, I would resist having a transfusion unless no other option was available. I think the move is towards non-blood medical treatments and with many of the techniques now available, I'm not surprised that mortality and morbidity statistics in controlled and closely monitored operative procedure would be similar.

That being said, many witnesses have died as a result of the stance against blood and I agree with joel. Children dying, because denied platelet transfusions when other particles of blood are allowed, is indefensible. It's criminal, in my opinion.

I certainly do appreciate the information. There's no denying that blood transfusions are invasive and potentially harmful. Yet, they are also potentially life saving.

Sass

Edited by - Sassenach on 17 January 2001 8:45:35

47

Platlets...can WTBTS policy be defended?

by joel in

jw
friends

if this topic has been addressed already...sorry...just ignore it.... if not...i would like to hear from those who would defend this policy....or who see the inconsistencies in the views on blood but the wtbts.. .

the following is something i read on at another site.

there is no question that the watchtower's blood policy needlessly kills jw children.

Sassenach

Xandit,
I would sure like to see where you found your information.

I'd like to see that as well.

One thing I have found interesting, and this is from non-JW sources, is that statistically speaking there is no difference in mortality and morbidity for JW patients and for patients from the general population. The only difference when you look at the overall picture is that Witnesses get out of the hospital 24 hours earlier.

I would like to know more about the study. I was told this same "statistic" from someone who read it in the watchtower magazine. It quoted a study (non witness source) that focused only on one form of surgery.

Xandit, your statement confuses me. Are you saying that witnesses leave hospital sooner than the general population or just sooner than those receiving blood? Certainly the more gravely ill patients are the ones receiving blood.

I would not consider it to be a valid study unless all other variables were equal. If your control group consists of individuals who's condition necessitated the use of blood, then the study group (jehovah's witnesses) should be comprised of individuals who's condition also necessitated the use of blood (yet did not receive it).

Thanks

31

What are the reasons?

by neyank in

jw
friends

hi all,.

someone asked me the other day why i am so interested in reading about jws,ex jws and things that are going on with the wts.. i think for the most part,only those who have been involved with the wts can understand why we are so interested in the subject.. of course having believed everything the wts has told us over the years and dedicating our lives to it kept us tied in with them.. what are the different reasons that you all have for continuing to be preocupied with the wts?.

neyank

Sassenach

I want to be sure. I'd love to live forever on a perfect paradise earth. Problem is, I don't believe everything that the jehovah's witnesses teach. I don't like sitting on this fence, balancing between doubting myself and then doubting them. I want to know for certain. I guess it is a form of validation. "Do you see what I see?"

I suppose I need to hear from people who are honestly seeking the truth.