scholar

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Posts by scholar

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  25

  Who Were the NWT Translators?

  by AlanF in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i just posted this information to a private email list, but i think it will be of interest to people on this board.. the following list of translators of the new world translation is a compilation from a variety of sources:.

  frederick w. franz: main translator.

  took liberal arts sequence at university of cincinnati; 21 semester hours of classical greek, some latin.

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  scholar

  Alan F

  You list the names of six members of the Bethel family who are rumoured to be the members of the NWT committee. This disagrees with the list of four names stated by Raymond Franz in his COC page 50, 2nd edition, 1992. Whis is the correct list? I put it to you that your sources are unreliable even if they are well meaning, such is merely secondhand opinion or simply rumour.

  James Penton in his Apocalypse Delayed could not provide any evidence as to the identity of the committee. This is somewhat surprising as he is a competent historian of JW history, lived in somewhat close geographical proximity to the US and Canadian Bethels and no doubt would have had numerous sources and contacts. Yet he only refers to the list given on p. 50 in COC. How can this be?

  Under a previous heading on this board 'Accuracy of Bible Translation', I commented that it is somewhat strange that in the likely event that there was archival material of the NWT committee in Bethel that this was mot referred to by Raymond Franz who one would have thought because of his status would have have access to it.
  I queried as to why Franz did not provide any ORAL or WRITTEN material that could be used as evidence in a future public forum. In his COC, he gives an excellent account of oral converations, copies of letters and other confidential memos etc. He has a good memory in that he recalls even converations between his colleagues who were supposed members of the NWT committee.

  In your reply to this matter, you stated that it was because of a "fanatical devotion to secrecy" as an explanation. Surely, you must appreciate that organizations of whatever type possess at various levels, a measure of secrecy. Why even many families have their secrets. Apart from this, the organization is bureaucratic. This means there is much attention to records, archives, memos, correspondence etc. In short, one must logically expect that somewhere in Bethel there is documention in some form that does or may establish the identity of the committee. If in fact no such documentaion exists. then one may assume that NWT committee existed or exists outside of Bethel but not independent of it.

  In fact, in your earlier post , you refer to such documentation but you provide no details. It is somewhat amazing with the number of people who have left and are no longer associated with the Society why they have not blown the whistle so to speak. Even Franz did not feel unashamed in revealing the contents of private conversations that would have been an embarrassment for such prominent individuals.

  The committe wished that their anonymity be protected even after their death. This means that one of life's greatest secrets will be eternally preseved. This means that for eternity the greatest translation ever devised constitutes a memorial to the Author of the Holy S criptures, Jehovah God.

  scholar

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  29

  Accuracy of Bible Translation

  by ruffian in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am trying to find out more on the translators of the jw's bible.

  they claim and so it claims in the front of their bible that it was translated by experts in greek and hebrew.

  what training if any did these people actually have in these ancient languages.

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  scholar

  Ruffian

  It is true that Raymond Franz in his book Crisis of Conscience names the members of the NWT committee, but is this reliable? Franz is able to provide much documentation for many of the issues he deals with in his book. I somewhat surprised that a person in his position would not have been able to access the Society's archives or the NWT files which no doubt contain all the necessary documentation for the NWT project. In short, why does Franz not provide evidence for the identity of the committee rather than giving hearsay information?

  Regarding the policy of introducing Jehovah into the NT, the Society provides clear and incontrovertible reasons for such a courageous position. Interestingly, there is an article which discusses for the first time in any biblical reference work on this subject. This first appears in the prestigious Anchor Bible Dictionary and the article is written by George Howard.

  scholar
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  29

  Accuracy of Bible Translation

  by ruffian in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am trying to find out more on the translators of the jw's bible.

  they claim and so it claims in the front of their bible that it was translated by experts in greek and hebrew.

  what training if any did these people actually have in these ancient languages.

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  scholar

  Greetings Ruffian

  There has been much speculation as to the identity and the qualifications of the NWT committee. In the absence of such information there is nothing to be gained in pursuing such unknowable questions. The scholarship is self evident in their work, it is without doubt the 'jewel in the crown' of all Bible translations.
  The use of Jehovah in the NT and the correct translation of prescence for parousia are examples of its brilliance.

  It is the only multi-lingual translation ever produced with it being available in part or whole in excess of thirty languages. Its accuracy can be confirmed by comparing it alondside other translations. The Society has published much background material concerning its features and textual sources. It comes with a good pedigree and as a good wine must be tasted to appreciate it so the NWT must be used and studied in order to appreciate its beauty.

  Enjoy
  scholar

  R
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  41

  Kierkegaard on Abraham and Isaac: Blood

  by dunsscot in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  to whom it may concern,.

  the witnesses are often condemned for refusing blood transfusions and "permitting" their children to die.

  such a religious position is untenable, opponents of jws will argue.

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  scholar

  Greetings Dunnscot
  Congratulations on your use of Kierkegaard in the incident involving Abraham and Isaac. Such commentary by this philosopher and theologian is very helpful in solving knotty theological problems. The society many years ago published an article on Kierkegaard which discussed his vehement condemnation of Christendom. His life was short and tragic but he has left a powerful legacy for Christians in their ministry and worship. Itis pleasing to see that you have a love for philosophy and it can be useful in explaining the unexplainable.

  Recently the Society in its wisdom used a concept of causality to explain by means of a diagram the fact of creation. This was discussed in a recent study article on Creation.

  Happy philosophizing
  scholar
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  26

  The Kingdom Interlinear Translation

  by VM44 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the kingdom interlinear translation (kit) has been published by the.

  watchtower since 1969. it still is available in it's second editon.. but how many really use this book?

  or read it?

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  scholar

  Hello VM44
  The answer to your question is found under the heading 'BY WAY OF EXPLANATION', paragraph 2 in KIT, 1985 edition: "Sincere searchers for eternal, life-giving truth desire an accurate understanding of the faith-inspiring Greek Scriptures, an understanding that is fortified by the knowledge of what the original language says and means. The purpose behind the publishing of the KIT is to aid such seekers of truth and life. Its literal interlinear English translation is specially designed to open up to the student of the Sacred Scriptures what the original koine Greek basically or literally says".

  The KIT fulfills this noble objective brilliantly. I can only add my testimony which is in full agreement with Jason de Buhn. If any person wishes to engage in deep theological study of the NT then this is a superb instrument to engage in such pure research. I give the KIT 10 out 10 for its lexicography, morphology, syntax and textual criticism. Proof of this observation can be realized if one uses advanced commentaries of the New Testament as well as the scholarly journals. I urge to use it and you will be wiser for it.

  scholar
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  18

  "THE GLORIOUS ONES" WT TWISTING THE ...

  by ARoarer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i have been reading from other bibles and comparing them to the wt.

  translation in the nwt and found it interesting that the information that they use in the reasoning book regarding apostates is taken from jude and the experience of korah with moses.

  it seems they use this scripture to identify elders as the "glorious ones", and anyone speaking against the society is compared to korah speaking against moses.

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  scholar

  ARoarer
  In regard as to whether the understanding of 'glorious ones' in Jude 8 and 2Peter 2:10 should apply to human (elders)ecclesiastical authorities or to angels, you may find the following information helpful.

  Firstly, the noun 'doxas' has accusative case, feminine gender and plural number.
  Secondly, older commentaries favoured the interpretation applicable to human authories, however their exegesis was limited in scope and detail.
  Thirdly, the expression 'glorious ones' in the opinion of major commentators refers to 'angels'. I quote the following:

  "The possibility that doxas refers to human authorities, ecclesiastical or civil, can be ruled out at once, for it can make no good sense of vs.11. We must take doxas as in Jude 8, to refer to angelic powers". Word Biblical Commentary, JUDE, 2 PETER, Richard J Bauckham, 1983, Vol. 50, pp. 260 - 262; 57 - 58.

  Hoping this information is helpful
  scholar
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  26

  NWT

  by amicus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  when reading the new world translation i used to sometimes think, who translated this gobbledygook?..

  i just read another passage where the nwt manages to slaughter the english language.. acts 21:30 .

  nwt ...., and a running together of the people occurred:.... kjv ..., and the people ran together:.... niv ..., and the people came running from all directions.. this is an excerpt from the foreword of the nwt; it is a very responsible thing to translate the holy scriptures........into modern speech.

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  scholar

  Hi Amicus,

  I disagree with your comment that "there is no reason for this awkward wording" for the phrasing used at Acts 21:30 NWT. You must remember that the committee's policy was "to give as literal a translation as possible where the modern-English idiom and where a literal rendition does not, by any awkwardness, hide the thought".The expression that you object to is "and a running together of the people occurred". Many other non-literal translations reverse the word order so that you have the noun preceding the verbal action as shown in the NIV and the KJV. Interestinly, Rotherham's Emphasized Bible agrees with the NWT. It states "and there took place a running together of the people".

  Also in agreement with the NWT is the translation and commentary on this passage by ACTS in the prestigious International Critical Commentary, Vol.2, p.1017 by Emeritus Professor C.K. Barrett. It states "and there was a tumultuous concourse of the people". The commentary explains "As the context indicates, violent excitement is meant". (p.1021) This commentary originates from Great Britain, the home of proper English so it would have this expression put into correct and modern speech as does the NWT. In addition, the NWT captures by mode of expression the "authority, power, dynamism and the directness of the original Hebrew and Greek Scriptures. and to convey these characteristics in modern English".

  scholar

  hich
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  26

  NWT

  by amicus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  when reading the new world translation i used to sometimes think, who translated this gobbledygook?..

  i just read another passage where the nwt manages to slaughter the english language.. acts 21:30 .

  nwt ...., and a running together of the people occurred:.... kjv ..., and the people ran together:.... niv ..., and the people came running from all directions.. this is an excerpt from the foreword of the nwt; it is a very responsible thing to translate the holy scriptures........into modern speech.

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  scholar

  amicus.
  Your observations on the NWT are interesting but are incorrect. In reference to Acts 21:30, the expression "a running together of the people occurred" correctly translate the verb and the participle concerned. I have found that the NWT does an excellent job in rendering correctly the tenses, mood and voice of the verbs and participles. If you were able to undertake a course in biblical greek you will find as I have that the NWT is a useful instrument in translating Greek to English and vice versa. If you are having some difficulty in using the NWT then by all means compare it with other translations. The NIV is a good readable translation and I use this regularly for my devotional reading. However, in matters of scholarship where accuracy is more important than readibility then the NWT is undoubtedly the 'Rolls Royce' of Bible translations. It is not infallible and is subject as with any literary work to ongoing criticism and revision.

  I am somewhat puzzled by the experience of Brother Franz being unable to explain the intricacies of the Greek preposition, 'en' for in to a DO and Gilead graduate. In my experience is somewhat uncommon for any such brother to have any knowledge or competence in such areas. It is a salutary reminder that the brother are not encouraged to engage in pure theological research but only in the use of the Society's publications. I would be somewhat surprised if such brother have ever seen or opened a Greek lexicon. If this is not the case the one must assume that such brothers experience such knowledge by using reference books in the Bethel library. Perhaps, Brother Franz was experiencing some frustration in trying to explain the the theological care in regard to Greek prepositions.

  scholar
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  25

  need help re 607 date

  by hosebracket in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am new to this.. i have a problem.

  someone on my ministry asked me about the date that we hold so dear....607 bce and asked me to prove it to them.

  this would not be a problem i thought as the f&ds would have solid basis for using such a date.

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  scholar

  My reply to Hosebracket's dilemna brought a mixed response and sadly indicates accuracy in these comments. It is incorrect to say that there is overwhelming evidence for 587. Other scholars prefer 586, so how can such dates be factual. The bottom line is that any chronology in respect to dating the fall of Jerusalem is based on interpretation and methodology. The scholar therfore is subjective in his analysis of all of the evidence. One has only to read scholarly works such as Carl Jonsson's 'Gentile Times Reconsidered'(First edition,suppl.,Second edition) to see this complex subject as a hypothesis. It reflects the opinion of its author. Similarly you have the 'Mysterious Numbers of the Hebrew Kings' written by a Seventh Day Adventist scholar, Edwin R. Thiele which also is a hypotheical chronology for the monarchies of Judah and Israel. The society in its wisdom have presented a simple, historical and scriptural methodolgy for dating the fall of Jerusalem as nicely explained in the literature. In this age of 'higher criticism' it is pleasing to see that with the aid of secular chronologies based upon eclipses and the Babylonian records can brings us to within a striking distance of some twenty years to 607.
  The secular date of 586 or 587 in its own way confirms the validity of a scripturally reckoned date of 607. I make this somewhat surprising statement because there are some scholars who regard the chronology in the old testament as symbolic or mythical.

  scholar

  econsideredta
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  25

  need help re 607 date

  by hosebracket in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am new to this.. i have a problem.

  someone on my ministry asked me about the date that we hold so dear....607 bce and asked me to prove it to them.

  this would not be a problem i thought as the f&ds would have solid basis for using such a date.

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  scholar

  Hosebracket, You should feel very confident about 607 BCE as the Society has provided much information that has both a simple methodology of reckoning and is consistent with biblical exegesis. I have read with much interest much information posted on the net in relation to this most conroversial topic. Our critics have compiled scholarly treatises on this subject but the position of the society is sound. The reason why one can be confident is that this date is reckoned with a biblical perspective. One must be extremely cautious in matters of biblical chronology as scholars agree on very little in respect to this subject. For example, scholars cannot agree as to whether Jerusalem fell in 587 or 586 and cannot agree as to the length of the reigns for Judah and israel. Witness scholars who bave both the academic and theocratic experience are most interested in this debate and are only to willing to be of assistance.
  scholar