Posts by scholar

50

Gentile Times reconsidered

by confused and lost in

i am half way through this book by carl o. jonsson and the more i read the more certain i become that the 607bce date for the destruction of jerusalem by babylon is nothing more than a fabrication designed to uphold 1914 and hence the "authority" of the watchtower leadership.it makes me sick to think of how they have duped millions of people with their phoney chronology.it makes sitting through studies that mention these dates irritating to say the least.especially when all the heads nod in unison at the mention of the "magic 607"

scholar

confused and lost

You certainly will be confused if you accept the Jonsson hypothesis published as Gentile Times Reconsidered for it contains at least major historical blunderin connection with modern history and is very fuzzy regarding the biblical ;seventy years'.

A scholarly rebuttal of Jonsson's research by Rolf Firuli is now available in two volumes dealing with secular chronologies of the ancient world and a linguistic analysis of the seventy years. Further, this recent scholarly research demonstrates the reality of a twenty-year gap between biblical chronology as endorsed by 'celebrated' WT scholars and the secular chronology proposed by Jonsson and higher critics.

scholar JW

129

587/607 Question...

by deaconbluez in

if the exile wasn't to be 70 years, how is jeremiah 29:10 explained by pro-587 folks?.

10 "for this is what jehovah has said, in accord with the fulfilling of seventy years at babylon i shall turn my attention to you people, and i will establish toward you my good word in bringing you back to this place.. .

also, if it truly was a 70-year period of servitude, and not exile, when was this 70 years served by other nations?.

scholar

AnnOMaly

Your reply is still rather vague as your claim does not appear to have any relevance to Furuli's methodology. Where is it the case that Furuli or critics of 586/587 BCE have dated the Babylonian year from May ? It appears that you have invented a 'red herring' in this case.

scholar JW

129

587/607 Question...

by deaconbluez in

if the exile wasn't to be 70 years, how is jeremiah 29:10 explained by pro-587 folks?.

10 "for this is what jehovah has said, in accord with the fulfilling of seventy years at babylon i shall turn my attention to you people, and i will establish toward you my good word in bringing you back to this place.. .

also, if it truly was a 70-year period of servitude, and not exile, when was this 70 years served by other nations?.

scholar

AnnOMaly

Would you give the reference or provide the source for your criticism of Furuli's methodology ?

scholar JW

129

587/607 Question...

by deaconbluez in

if the exile wasn't to be 70 years, how is jeremiah 29:10 explained by pro-587 folks?.

10 "for this is what jehovah has said, in accord with the fulfilling of seventy years at babylon i shall turn my attention to you people, and i will establish toward you my good word in bringing you back to this place.. .

also, if it truly was a 70-year period of servitude, and not exile, when was this 70 years served by other nations?.

scholar

Doug Mason

Post 369

I know you have a personal interpretation of the seventy years but I simply reject the nonsense as it is not in accord with the plain word of scripture but simply amounts to twisting the facts to suit your preconceived chronology.

The seventy years of Jeremiah was a full or definite historic period of Exile-Servitude-Desolation prescribed as punishment for Judah as proven by its reference to by Daniel, Ezra, Zechariah and Josephus. These writers made sufficient comment on Jeremiah's prophecy of the seventy years as to its explanation and timing, they were not confused about as many are today including scholars, higher critics and apostates all of which have abandoned the theology of the seventy years.

You 'muddy' the waters by your two-streams model which yokes the seventy years of Jeremiah to events during the reign of Manasseh, king of Judah (716-661 BCE) who lived in the period of Assyria as a World Power. Jeremiah with the remaining last kings of Judah were comtemporaneous with Babylon not Assyria so your historical connection is too far stretched. The book of Jeremiah deals with a precise historical period beginning with the Josiah's 13th year in 647 BCE until 580 BCE a period of no less than 67 years. This means there is no need to look beyond these date inot the past for some fuzzy application of the seventy years.

Your fuzzy beginning of the seventy years mirrors the somewhat vague beginning advance by Jonsson in his hypothesis who simply cannot be precise about a date for the beginning or an event for the beginning. Is it 609 BCE ? Or is it 605 BCE? Such confusion invalidates any proposed interpretation. Celebrated WT scholars have never been confused about the period as to its substance, theology and chronology.

Your bogus 'second stream' also has many difficulties. The claim that the seventy years ended with the Fall of Babylon is stupid reasoning because Daniel in 9:2 wriiting after the Fall of Babylon states that the seventy years had not then been fulfilled.

The further claim that the seventy years was of servitude only ignores the biblical facts of an exile and desolation which could only have comptemporaneous with each other. In short, exile produces servitude which in turn exile leaves a vacant land, depopulated hence desolate. Our critics hone in one verse which mentions serving the King of Babylon in Jeremiah 25:11 but they ignore the fact that Jeremiah in19:10 writes to the exiles in Babylon during the seventy year period. So these two verses proves that the seventy years at this point amounted to exile and servitude. Also. Jer. 25:11 refers to desolation of the land in connection with the seventy years so we have model of exile-servitude-desolation.

The nations along with Judah would also receive judgement similar to Judah but their respective dues are not prescribed chronologically as was the case with Judah. Tyre as foretold by Isaiah would be punished for seventy years and Egypt was punished for forty years but precise historical details for all of the foreign nations is not presented.

In conclusion, I wish to advise you that Rolf Furuli has published his second volume on Babylonian Chronology and I have my copy which in my view is a most compelling critique of the Jonsson madness. Both volumes 1 and 2 contain sound linguistic examination of the seventy year texts. The books are available form the publisher.

Regards

scholar JW

129

587/607 Question...

by deaconbluez in

if the exile wasn't to be 70 years, how is jeremiah 29:10 explained by pro-587 folks?.

10 "for this is what jehovah has said, in accord with the fulfilling of seventy years at babylon i shall turn my attention to you people, and i will establish toward you my good word in bringing you back to this place.. .

also, if it truly was a 70-year period of servitude, and not exile, when was this 70 years served by other nations?.

scholar

deaconbluez

The Jewish exile was prophesied to be a full period of seventy years according to the words of Jeremiah which was a period also of servitude to Babylon with their homeland desolate for that same period of seventy years. In short, the Bible iks quite emphatic that the seventy years was a period of servitude, exile and desolation from the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 until the Return in 537 BCE.

The prophecy of Jeremiah 29:10 applied to those Jewish exiles in Babylon and cannot be reconciled witth those proponents of the 587 BCE theory who would have you believe that the seventy years was a period of servitude alone reflecting Babvlonian domination beginning from a fuzzy starting point. The NWT correctly renders the phrase 'at Babylon' which is correct contextually rather than 'for Babylon' which is admissible on linguistic grounds but conflicts with the context.

The other nations were also brought into servitude to Babylon but their length is not stated as it it was for Judah which was a predetermined period of seventy years.

The 587 hypothesis endorsed by apostates and favoured by some scholars is falsified by the seventy years which creates a twenty year gap between the sacred and the secular records thus proving that the Bible alone should be the basis for chronology.

scholar JW

8

ATTENTION: 587/607 Buffs..

by deaconbluez in

jw
friends

how would you answer this:.

"it's simple: we know there was a 70-year exile, and that that the jews returned in 537bce.

so 537bce minus 70 years equals 607bce!

scholar

deaconbluez

Post 307

This simple calculation by the celebrated WT scholars cannot be refuted by either apostates who support the Jonsson hypothesis or higher critics. This simple calculation harmonizes all of the available biblical and secular data and highlights the simple fact that the seventy years of Judah were a period of servitude, exile and desolation of the land. We can be supremely confident on the basis of scripture and secular evidence that the Fall of Jerusalem beginning the seventy year period occurred in 607 BCE.

scholar JW

116

The simplest explanation of 607 BCE

by Doug Mason in

if you are looking for the simplest picture that shows how the wts calculates that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, and if you want to understand basic problems with their method, this might be what you want.. http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/wts_false_reasoning_for_607_bce.pdf.

(make sure that your pdf reader displays the whole page.).

doug.

scholar

Jeffro

Post 1569

Read modern history that deals with the Great War and the chronology/theology of the Gentile Times. Examine the manner yourself for it is all their before you or do I have to spoon-feed you.

Paranoia is the trait of apostates who have nothing better to do with their time then to ridicule the Lord's people and his work. We are to busy getting onwith the job to be bothered with such nonsense.

Yes your good news is simply an agenda of doing nothing, living an empty life with no love, faith or hope like the rest of Christendom.

scholar JW

116

The simplest explanation of 607 BCE

by Doug Mason in

if you are looking for the simplest picture that shows how the wts calculates that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, and if you want to understand basic problems with their method, this might be what you want.. http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/wts_false_reasoning_for_607_bce.pdf.

(make sure that your pdf reader displays the whole page.).

doug.

scholar

aniron

Post 826

Even our staunchest critics pay homage to our use of the Bible, no-one can seriously deny that our teachings are Bible based free from human traditions and creeds.

Yes the mere citation by itself is no proof but we invite the reader to examine those texts and cross check with other cited texts. So, the proof is there for all to use and prove. This is Heremeneutics at its best. Circular reasoning is a fallacyand used by those who lack any intellectual compass in order to remove any idea of Truth.

scholar JW

116

The simplest explanation of 607 BCE

by Doug Mason in

if you are looking for the simplest picture that shows how the wts calculates that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, and if you want to understand basic problems with their method, this might be what you want.. http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/wts_false_reasoning_for_607_bce.pdf.

(make sure that your pdf reader displays the whole page.).

doug.

scholar

aniron

Post 825

At this time I am unable to provide a list of as you say the mysterious group of 'celebrated WT scholars'.

No blindfold but simply the Bible and clear thinking ability with its power of reason. Don't you love it?

scholar JW

116

The simplest explanation of 607 BCE

by Doug Mason in

if you are looking for the simplest picture that shows how the wts calculates that jerusalem was destroyed in 607 bce, and if you want to understand basic problems with their method, this might be what you want.. http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/wts_false_reasoning_for_607_bce.pdf.

(make sure that your pdf reader displays the whole page.).

doug.

scholar

Jeffro

Post 1568

Apostates are scared of scholar because he skilfully defends WT chronology knowing full well that his apology can be helpful to those 'weak in faith', having doubt sowed in their minds by such deceivers. Scholar is helpful.

Your model is simply an interpretation biased in favour of Neo-Babylonian chronology with the illusion of being Bible-based. It simply an opinion and falls on the sword of the 'seventy years' which corrects the data by twenty years. Also, it false to history as it does not accurately with the reign of Jehoiakim and his vassalage to Nebuchadnezzer amongst many other things. Be aware of scholar's maxim;

Poor history=Poor chronology

scholar JW