Posts by scholar

54

What changes are on the way?

by insearchoftruth in

i was listening to the co talk to my wife’s congregation on sunday and pretty much the complete talk was justifying doctrinal and organizational changes and pretty much preparing the ‘rank and file’ for upcoming changes.

anyone on hear have any insight of what ‘new light’ is coming in the future?.

scholar

Vidqun

Jeremiah prophesied that “these nations [including the Judahites] will have to serve the king of Babylon for seventy years” (Jer. 25:11). The seventy years could be viewed as a full generation (cf. Jer. 27:7). Included in the seventy years is the desolation of the land, paying off its sabbaths (2 Chron. 36:21). The desolation did not last seventy years but fulfilled seventy years [until their seventy year servitude had been completed]. In Zechariah’s case, the cities had been denounced for seventy years, i.e., they had lost God’s protection (cf. Zech. 1:12).

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The 70 years was a definite historic period as the Exile and lasted for that exact period of time right to the very month and day as shown by the Chronicler..

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According to Dan. 9:2 Jerusalem's devastation amounted to seventy years. Daniel would have known Jerusalem was not devastated for seventy years. The MT is corrupted in this instance. This was first century Jewish though on the matter. The concept, seventy years of desolation for Jerusalem, reflects later Rabbinic interpretation (see Dan. 9:2 Theo and Josephus). Devastations vs. reproach. In the OG we have ὀνειδισμός, meaning “reproach” (singular). See NETS. This is viewed as an error in the transmission: Jer. 25:9 καὶ εἰς ὀνειδισμόν and (I turn them) into a disgrace ולחרפות is read for MT and (I will turn them) into desolations. However, as seen, Dan. 9:2 is not drawn from Jer. 29:10, but Jer. 25:9-12. Here it could mean “reproach, disgrace, insult” (cf. Jer. 18:16; 19:8; Ezek. 5:13, 14). Specifically Jer. 25:9, and something to whistle at and places devastated to time indefinite.” LXX καὶ εἰς ὀνειδισμόν. See BHS footnote. KBLex, in accordance with the textcritical note suggests an emendation to (“as a disgrace”). See J. Lust, E. Eynikel & K. Hauspie (2003). A Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint: Revised Edition. Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft: Stuttgart. According to secular chronology, Jerusalem did not lie desolate for seventy years, but her reproach and humiliation could have started with Jehoiakim’s three year Babylonian servitude, completing Jeremiah’s seventy year cycle (2 Kings 24:1, 2; cf. Is. 25:9, 11). See also Dan. 9:16.

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Daniel recognized that the 70 years was a definite period of time countable not just to the very year but to its month as shown by the expression "for fulfilling the devastations of Jerusalem, seventy years"-NWT, 1984.

According to the Bible not secular chronology, the land lay desolate for the precise period of 70 years along with the Jews being exiled in Babylon along with reproach and humiliation as an act of punishment by God.

scholar JW

54

What changes are on the way?

by insearchoftruth in

i was listening to the co talk to my wife’s congregation on sunday and pretty much the complete talk was justifying doctrinal and organizational changes and pretty much preparing the ‘rank and file’ for upcoming changes.

anyone on hear have any insight of what ‘new light’ is coming in the future?.

scholar

Fisherman

You miss the point: 586 is not supported by the Bible as the destruction of Jerusalem.

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Agreed

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You conclude too much. I never said that 539 was the beginning of the 70 years or of the date of the destruction of Jerusalem. I simply showed that 586 is not supported by God’s word using the historical date 539 and God’s word 70 years. I also stated that I believe that 537 is the starting point. However, since WT reference Bible qualified 1914 with the word circa 1914 as the end of the Gentile Times, it seems that either 537, 1914 or the method used to extrapolate these dates is an estimate.

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OK. Do we agree that the 70 years did not end in 539 BCE? We both agree that 586 BE is not supported by God's Word with the destruction of Jerusalem. The dates 537BCE for the end of the 70 years and 1914 CE for the end of the Gentile Times are both based on God's Word.

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Where does it say that the Jews repatriated Israel in 537? Can you prove that the Cyrus decree was on 537? And if so, can you prove exactly how long after 537 it took the Jews to travel and arrive in Israel? Again 586 does not work because it is a historical fact that Babylon fell in 539 and God’s word says that the land was desolate 70 years to pay back its Sabbath’s. That’s it. But if you want to know why WT figures 537, that is another topic. My post attempts to invalidate 586 not show why wt teaches 607.
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Yes, we can prove that 537 BCE is the date for the Return of the Jewish Exiles thus ending the exile of 70 years. Remember, that chronology is based on methodology and interpretation thus these two principles facilitate any such 'proof'.
scholar JW
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54

What changes are on the way?

by insearchoftruth in

i was listening to the co talk to my wife’s congregation on sunday and pretty much the complete talk was justifying doctrinal and organizational changes and pretty much preparing the ‘rank and file’ for upcoming changes.

anyone on hear have any insight of what ‘new light’ is coming in the future?.

scholar

Vidgun

Pharaoh Necho’s campaign in northern Syria coincides with the brief reign of Jehoahaz, who was deposed on Necho’s return shortly after 1 Tishri (late Sept) 609, at which time Jehoiakim’s accession begins. First year of Jehoiakim, Tishri 608 (Sept–Oct) to Elul 607 (Aug–Sept). Third year of Jehoiakim, Tishri 606 (Sept–Oct) to last of Elul, 605 (Oct 6). This is the twenty-first year of Nabopolasar and the accession year of Nebuchadrezzar. Battle of Carchemish, late May to early June 605; Nabopolasar’s death Aug 15/16, 605. Nebuchadrezzar’s coronation Sept 7, 605. The accession year of Nebuchadrezzar = the third year of Jehoiakim. First (regnal) year of Nebuchadrezzar = the fourth year of Jehoiakim.

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Your broad history in this paragraph is OK but the dates you give for those events are in error and do not match accurate Bible Chronology.

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Jehoiakim reigned 11 years in Jerusalem (2 Kings 23:36). Dan. 1:1, 2 encompasses a period of 8 years. At the beginning of the eight years, in 605 BCE, Daniel and his companions would be deported (Dan. 1:1, 3). At the end of the eight years, in 597, Jehoiakim would be deposed, and some of the temple utensils taken (2 Chron. 36:5-7; Jer. 52:28; Dan. 1:2). Next followed Jehoiachin’s appointment, lasting only three months. Nebuchadrezzar, in his 8th year, would take 8000 into exile, including Jehoiachin. All remaining temple utensils would be taken (2 Kings 24:10-16; 2 Chron. 36:9, 10). This proves that the deportations do not have to be associated with the siege and capture of Jerusalem. Even after the fall of Jerusalem, during Nebuchadrezzar’s 18th year, the land was not left completely desolate. Jeremiah reports final deportation in Nebuchadrezzar’s 23rd year (Jer. 52:27-30). See A. R. Green (1982). “The Chronology of the Last Days of Judah: Two Apparent Discrepancies.” Journal of Biblical Literature, 101, pp. 57–73.

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Again your outline of events is OK but your interpretation of those events is wrong. There were only two deportations by Nebuchadnezzer during the reigns of Jehoiakim and Zedekiah. The first one was an exile to Babylon of the royal family, temple treasures etc in Neb's 7/8th year and the second deportation or remaining population in Neb's 18/19th year with the destruction of the city, temple and land began the Exile to Babylon of 70 years duration.

I have Green'.s article that you cite and like many scholars tries to resolve the problems of chronology in dealing with the period of the last days of Judah.

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Land was never desolate for seventy years. The slavery of the nations under the Babylonians would last seventy years (Jer. 25:11).

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No. The Bible writers Jeremiah., Daniel, Ezra, Zechariah were quite emphatic that the exile was of 70 years and that Judah would be desolate for 70 years and Josephus confirms such a viewpoint of matters.

scholar JW

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54

What changes are on the way?

by insearchoftruth in

i was listening to the co talk to my wife’s congregation on sunday and pretty much the complete talk was justifying doctrinal and organizational changes and pretty much preparing the ‘rank and file’ for upcoming changes.

anyone on hear have any insight of what ‘new light’ is coming in the future?.

scholar

Fisherman

WT has always explained that Babylon fell in 539 not 537 and that the 70 years did not start until after Gedaliah was assasinated also that Jews did not leave Babylon in 539 and it took time to get there and that the land lay desolate until the first Jew set foot on eretz Israel in 537– But that is all extrapolation. We do know, however, —because it is a historical fact—that Babylon fell in 539. Although I believe that WT extrapolation is correct, it cannot be proven. The pivotal date 539 though is fact and God’s word says land desolate 70 years.—That we know.

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No this is not extrapolation but historical facts based on Ezra the historian who wrote Ezra and Chronicles. Babylon fell in 539 BCE but the Jews remained in exile after that event being released under the Cyrus Decree in 537 BCE. The land remained desolate for 70 years which was also the period of Exile so if we count back we come to 607 BCE for the beginning of the Exile and not 586 or 587 BCE.

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Simply put, 539-70 is 609. Ball park, circa, around = 607 and 1914. 537 is not a “historical date” although 539 is.

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539 BCE does not work for at that time the Jews were still in Exile and the land remained desolate until reoccupied by the Jewish Exiles. Further, 609 BCE was a non-event in respect of Jewish history so it cannot be used as a starting point for the 70 years.

scholar JW

54

What changes are on the way?

by insearchoftruth in

i was listening to the co talk to my wife’s congregation on sunday and pretty much the complete talk was justifying doctrinal and organizational changes and pretty much preparing the ‘rank and file’ for upcoming changes.

anyone on hear have any insight of what ‘new light’ is coming in the future?.

scholar

Fisherman

Simply put: 539-70=609, not 586.

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Not so for the purpose of accuracy:

537 BCE-70 years= 607 BCE

scholar JW

2

Great news friends

by Beth Sarim in

jw
friends

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6cv4jxbapu.

eric wilson outlines how this book is being released again.. i have the 2004 edition.

which i purchased in 2018. was fortunate to obtain at a reasonable price, which i thought i totally lucked-out on because i thought it was never going to be released again.

scholar

Beth Sarim

I have already written a Book Review for Gentile Times Reconsidered, 4th edn, when news of an updated version was announced early October this year. I have ordered this new version and after reading it will post my Review online. Wilson's video review adds nothing new to the debate in advocating the proposed date of 587 for the Fall rather than the biblically established date of 607 BCE

scholar JW

150

Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

by Vanderhoven7 in

anybody know something about vat 4956?.

nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

scholar

joey jojo

Just be honest, you are trolling us, right?
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Wrong
scholar JW emeritus
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150

Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

by Vanderhoven7 in

anybody know something about vat 4956?.

nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

scholar

Jeffro

All evidence for the period confirms that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 BCE. The planetary observations are just one more means of confirmation, but poor ‘scholar’ rejects them by necessity.

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Nonsense.All of the evidence: secular, biblical, historical and scientific points very clearly that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE.

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The JW chronology is out of step with reality by 20 years, as independently determined by the Bible, Assyrian history, Egyptian history, Babylonian history, Babylonian financial documents, and the literal heavens. But ‘scholar’ will cling to mother Watch Tower.

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WT/JW Bible Chronology has clearly demonstrated that the NB Period fails to account for at least a gap of twenty years as independently confirmed by VAT 4956 which has been hailed by WT critics especial SDA scholars and COJ as the cornerstone of NB Chronology.

The said scholar maintains his adherence to God's Word the Bible also championed by celebrated WT scholars.

scholar JW

150

Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

by Vanderhoven7 in

anybody know something about vat 4956?.

nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

scholar

Jeffro

The fact is that if the Watch Tower Society announced tomorrow that Jerusalem was destroyed in a different year (like when they previously insisted it was in 606), ‘scholar’ would jump right on board. He doesn’t care about the facts, just his religious dogma.

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Your comment is indicative of despair and desperation and fails to acknowledge that the said scholar loves facts and has no time for dogma.

scholar JW

150

Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 or 568 BC?

by Vanderhoven7 in

anybody know something about vat 4956?.

nebuchadnezzar's 37th year matches the year 588 bc?

any independant astronomer can test it and it only matches 568 bc.. .

scholar

Rocketman123

hen your a corrupt intellectually dishonest bible scholar, just like the so called WTS/JWS bible scholars

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Thank you for the compliment.

scholar JW