As an atheist, I think that the prejudice, discrimination, and countless pogroms the Jewish people have suffered throughout the past 2000+ years is one of the best arguments against theism. All of the antisemitism shit is rooted in theism (specifically the monotheistic religions of Christianity and Islam). It's all been religiously motivated. Even the Holocaust was perpetrated mostly by Christians and in fact Hitler's policy towards the jews was directly inspired by Martin Luther's 'The Jews & Their Lies'. Jews and atheists are natural allies, for we share the same enemies.
Rainbow_Troll
JoinedPosts by Rainbow_Troll
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A Special Thanks ESPECIALLY to ATHEISTS
by David_Jay inas most of you know there has been a rise in antisemitism in the world as of late, especially in the united states where i live where many of our jewish community centers and schools have been subjected to bomb threats.
around the world many jewish cemeteries have been vandalized too.. while i have left the forum earlier this year due to a need to move on with my own healing path (and realizing this forum is doing quite well with the many bright minds already among the crowd), i have briefly returned mainly to write this note of gratitude (though i did post a few times too while i have been here).. it has been touching and very helpful when muslims, christians, and people of other faiths have stood with those of us in the jewish community to protest this wave of hostility against my people.
there have been many public displays of solidarity with us against these acts of hatred and prejudice and some personal notes from friends letting me know i am not alone.. some of you have been among those who have voiced your concern for me and other jews during this time.
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JWs Like to Take Away Hope...
by JW_Rogue ini think the worst thing about jws is that they like to take away peoples realistic hopes for a happy life now and replace it with false hope for the future.
tell a jw you want to go college and get a good career and they'll tell you that college is a waste of time, that you'll end up in debt or that the economy is so bad there are no jobs.
tell a jw about how scientists have discovered a new technology that could improve millions of lives and they'll tell you that scientists and technology have "ruined the earth" and cannot be trusted.
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Rainbow_Troll
Smiddy: Do they think all the infrastructure / utillities water ,electricity ,sewerage ,etc,etc, that are available now will still be operating when the worldly people who run these services now are all killed off in the big A?
I love this comment. It immediately brought to my mind an image of 'the great crowd' living in tents next to open latrines. The sisters are washing clothes and looking after their brats while the brothers go out to forage for canned food in the corpse-sprinkled post apocalyptic wasteland. Meanwhile, Jehovah's wrath has created all sorts of problems: nuclear meltdowns, escaped zoo animals, stray dogs and chemical spills. Maybe Jehovah even missed a few and there are now motorcycle gangs plundering and raping their way across the country. I'm glad I won't be around.
Tor: Every commenter hit all the nails on the head. Many are just jealous of the young ones who have their life ahead of them....and many wasted theirs...Most of the witnesses have had all the sex they are going to have in or out of the truth in or out of marriage....and now it's time for the young ones to have some fun....the ole ones are telling them...they are wasting their time...oh really...old folks had their fun. Now they are looking down the barrel of old age and death...
You hit it on the head. What especially disgusts me are the ones who left The Lie when they were young, had all their fun, come back and now tell the next generation what a terrible mistake they made. Bullshit! They're just burned out hedonists who would be partying hardy to this day if they still had it in them; but they don't and so now they want to ruin it for everyone else so they don't have to endure the sight of others enjoying what they no longer can.
I remember my mom once lecturing me about the dangers of dating and premarital sex: "We're all tempted. Don't you think I'd love to go out and have sex right now?" And I thought silently "Yeah, and if you weren't stuck in that 60 year old body I'm sure you would do just that." How the fuck did she meet my dad? Was it an arranged marriage? She dated like everyone else does when they are young! She actually rebelled against her own father, who couldn't stand my dad!
Tell a JW you want to go college and get a good career and they'll tell you that college is a waste of time, that you'll end up in debt or that the economy is so bad there are no jobs. Tell a JW about how scientists have discovered a new technology that could improve millions of lives and they'll tell you that scientists and technology have "ruined the earth" and cannot be trusted. Tell a JW about things that could be done to improve society, government, or human rights and they'll tell you there is nothing man can do. So they take away people's hope in anything that can realistically happen through man's effort and replace it with just waiting for God to make everything perfect. For JWs if it is not a perfect solution then there is no need to even care about it.
As grim as it is, I can't help but sympathize with this view. All the college graduates I know are in debt and work at terrible, MW jobs. What's worse is that a lot of these employers won't even hire someone whom they know is college educated (they'll tell you that you are 'over qualified'). Educated people have knowledge and options while most employers are looking for ignorant, desperate shmucks whom they can exploit without much fuss. The only reason I want to go to college is so I have something to do for the next 6+ years. If I'm lucky I might land a research position and never have to leave.
People vote and protest and blog to effect social change, but it never works. The politicians and corporate CEOs thought Occupy was a joke and they were right. What happened to the fire young people had back in the 60s? You don't change anything by drumming and holding up picket signs; you do it by making those who think they are in control tremble!
Technology is always improving, but only in the sense of more powerful cell phones and computers; not in reducing human suffering. When was the last time a major disease was eliminated? It was polio back in 1955. Dr. Jonas Salk gave away that vaccine even though he could have made millions off the patent! But now that all the research is undertaken by big corporations, do you see anything being cured? Curing disease isn't profitable, only treatments are.
Now all this isn't to say that the JWs offer anything better; they don't. But personally, I don't see much to hope for in the near future. Things are gonna have to get much worse before most people are motivated to do something effective.
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The "Paradise" as promised by the Watchtower
by Saethydd ini was thinking today about the descriptions of the future "paradise" presented by the watchtower, and i was struck by something about it.
most of us are aware that the watchtower promotes an interpretation of the apocalypse that would result in the immediate execution of 99.9% of the population with no hope for resurrection.
additionally, we have been told about the large group of people that are supposed to side with satan at the end of the thousand year reign of christ.
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Rainbow_Troll
Juan Viejo2: So what do you do after you've lived a thousand years? Ten thousand years?
When I was in the fifth grade I had a teacher who asked me this very question. She had dealt with JW students before and was pretty hostile towards the religion, but looking back I can see that she really was doing all she could to wake me up without getting her ass fired. I remember one day she caught me placing pamphlets inside student's desks when they were away at recess. That still makes me cringe.
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Which is worse according to the GB: Child Abuse or Apostasy??
by stuckinarut2 inso we all know how the organization conducts itself regarding child abuse.
the multitude of legal cases worldwide including the current australian royal commission as well as anecdotal accounts prove their attitude.. perpetrators have not been reported to authorities, and data bases of such have been kept sealed even when demanded by the courts!.
however, when it comes to those of us who have simply left the organization due to learning the truth, the society spares no effort in spreading gossip and ensuring that one's name and reputation is ruined.. so gb, which crime is worse?
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Rainbow_Troll
Data-Dog, I do not condone child molestation and I myself am an apostate. I was merely explaining things from the perspective of a brainwashed JW so people would understand the logic (or is that illogic) of the GB's position.
If you want back in the bOrg you have to repent of your sin; the severity of the sin is totally irrelevant to JWs. Child molestors are a lot more likely to repent (or pretend to repent) than apostates because they aren't opposing the GB on any kind of principle, they just got caught doing something they knew they shouldn't be doing. Consequently, child molestors (assuming they are even caught in the first place) receive a slap on the wrist before being welcomed back with open arms, while apostates get shunned forever even though they are much better people by nearly any conceivable moral or ethical standard.
Also, I enjoy comparing myself with Satan. It makes me feel like a real bad ass. There are many times I have wished that the Christian BS (belief system) were true so I could join Satan and devote my life to 'evil'.
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Does the two witness rule still stand on minor sins?
by Homer notsimpson inits been pointed out to me that two eye witnesses are always needed for elders to form a judicial case.
the sister could have sex with a brother.
she confesses and he denies, he gets off free, sure.
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Rainbow_Troll
The reason that the 2 witness rules is so messed up is that no child molestor is dumb enough to let anyone witness their crime. The only witness is the victim! So unless the perp is molesting more than one kid at a time or gets caught literally with his pants down, he's immune to prosecution!
In my congregation this is actually what happened to a brother. His wife caught him doing something with their daughter. If I knew who he was I might turn him in myself, but this is just something my mom picked up from the JW rumor mill.
While it's true that kids do lie like everyone else, there are actually fairly reliable methods of determining guilt. Just run the kid's clothing or bed sheets over with a black light. Is there semen? Does its DNA match that of the accused? Case closed.
The reason the two witness rule exists is because the GB knows it doesn't work. They don't want it to be known that their 'clean' organization is crawling with pedos, so they have deliberately made it as difficult as possible to 'convict' them. Once you have recognized this, everything makes sense.
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Which is worse according to the GB: Child Abuse or Apostasy??
by stuckinarut2 inso we all know how the organization conducts itself regarding child abuse.
the multitude of legal cases worldwide including the current australian royal commission as well as anecdotal accounts prove their attitude.. perpetrators have not been reported to authorities, and data bases of such have been kept sealed even when demanded by the courts!.
however, when it comes to those of us who have simply left the organization due to learning the truth, the society spares no effort in spreading gossip and ensuring that one's name and reputation is ruined.. so gb, which crime is worse?
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Rainbow_Troll
What makes apostasy different from any other sin is the lack of remorse. Even most child molestors probably believe that what they have done is wrong; but they just couldn't help themselves. Sex, after all, is the most powerful human instinct. In most people it overrides not only ethics and reason, but even self-preservation! So when a child-molestor is caught, he is likely to recognize that he was wrong and repent.
Contrast that with apostasy. Unlike sex, apostasy isn't some passion that overwhelms a basically good person and makes them do bad things. Apostasy is a very conscious, willful decision that involves the most human part of us: our intellect. Unlike the child molestor, the apostate isn't going to be contrite if he or she is caught. Chances are, the apostate won't even deny the accussation and will proudly defend their decision.
So even though the child-molestor has caused a lot of suffering and the apostate none at all, I totally understand why the former is handled with kid gloves while the latter is dealt with so harshly. Child molestors are just weak people who gave in to their basest instincts. Apostates, by contrast, are usually very strong, spiritual people who deliberately turn against Jehovah and his organization. It's the difference between Eve's sin and the fall of Lucifer. Eve and her husband were forgiven for their weakness, but Satan will never get that because he will never repent.
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Is Jehovah God guilty of the Sin of Omission ?
by smiddy inin genesis ch.1&2 god warns adam that if he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and bad he would die .theire was nothing said about anything else.. you would expect humans would just die of old age like adam and eve did.. the wages of sin is death the bible tells us .so if he disobeyed jehovah god he knew he would die .. what he never knew and neither did any other human to come after him was just how many ways death would come to humans.. death by creatures that were created by god venomous creatures ,snakes spiders etc.,marine creatures sharks etc., bacteria /viruses etc.,insect carrying diseases such as the mosquito that causes thousands of deaths to children under 5 years old even today with malaria.,wild animals etc,.leprosy that even existed under theocratic rule in the nation of israel.. then their is the indignties humans go through in old age ,loss of bodily functions , mental capacity ,alzheimers ,neurological diseases that effect young and old.that reduce people to almost live not much better than a vegetable .
natural disasters not to be excluded because these are in the control of god to afflict mankind or not.. the list of afflictions that humans have to suffer through before they die , from a loving god just boggles my mind.. and i have only scratched the surface of indignities humans have faced before they die.. so i ask the question is god jehovah guilty of the sin of omission ?
or did he act out of vengeance for their disobedience and wanted to inflict greater punishment upon them.for disobeying him.. what are your thoughts ?.
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Rainbow_Troll
I guess he should have told them that their descendants would be punished with death as well. In that case the couple could have just chosen to not procreate and the curse would have died with them. Then Jehovah could have gone back to the drawing board and tried again. Why do people have kids when they know that those kids will just suffer and die? Beats me.
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Picture worth 1000 words
by ILoveTTATT2 in(matthew 25:41-46) 41 “then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, ‘be on your way from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 for i became hungry, but you gave me nothing to eat, and i got thirsty, but you gave me nothing to drink.
43 i was a stranger, but you did not receive me hospitably; naked, but you did not clothe me; sick and in prison, but you did not look after me.’ 44 then they also will answer with the words, ‘lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to you?’ 45 then he will answer them with the words, ‘truly i say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of these least ones, you did not do it to me.’ 46 and these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”.
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Rainbow_Troll
Love the picture. Did you deliberately get a guy to sit by the cart or was this just a spontaneous candid photograph?
Individual JWs can be very charitable even to the worldly, but you're right, the organization does zilch in this regard. When I went church hopping I was impressed with how many churches have organized charity drives for the poor and destitute. It made me feel a little less cynical toward Christianity.
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"Look what you made me do to you"
by Zoos inthis line used by abusive spouses and governing bodies who mandate shunning:.
look what you made me do to you...".
it's got a bit of a history (according to the bible).
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Rainbow_Troll
The whole dynamic is best embodied in the three stooges: Jehovah is of course Moe, the know-it-all who bosses everyone around and can never be wrong. Satan is Curly, the guy who is always bungling up Moe's plans. Larry is the hapless human race.
So Jehovah sets up a garden and deliberately plants an evil fruit tree that he knows will tempt his creation. Satan then does his job and tempts us with a predictable outcome.
Jehovah: Look what you made me do! *tries to slug Satan but misses and hits Adam*
Adam: Nyuck, nyuck!
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If you had the opportunity to create religious doctrine from scratch,what rule would your church or nation have?
by Chook inwould you teach a heaven , hell, jesus , paradise.
what rule structure for discipline ect ,ect,.
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Rainbow_Troll
I don't thonk I could possibly come up with anything better than Aleister Crowley's law of Thelema:
Man has the right to live by his own law— to live in the way that he wills to do: to work as he will: to play as he will: to rest as he will: to die when and how he will.
Man has the right to eat what he will: to drink what he will: to dwell where he will: to move as he will on the face of the earth.
Man has the right to think what he will: to speak what he will: to write what he will: to draw, paint, carve, etch, mould, build as he will: to dress as he will.
Man has the right to love as he will:…"take your fill and will of love as ye will, when, where, and with whom ye will."
Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights.
I would have these words engraved on tablets of granite and every child would hear them sung by their parents before they were old enough to talk. And, of course, it would be understood that by 'Man' is meant all of humanity: every man, woman, boy, girl, and intersexed.
Every religion to date has been about "Do as I wilt." But Crowley said "No, don't do as I wilt, do as THOU wilt! Take responsibility for your own life. Live as a man, not a beast of burden." And of course, most people reacted with horror to such a 'selfish' doctrine. Sheep can't see beyond the whole master-slave dialectic. If you refuse to serve, you must be some sort of usurping tyrant.