Hi there Ken
I remember you from the old Philia gang..... glad to see you here!
Love, Scully
It is not persecution for an informed person to expose a certain religion as being false. - WT 11/15/63
Posts by Scully
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7My story.. as written in 1995
by KenUK inwhilst tidying up the ol' hard drive i came across "the purging of my soul", which i wrote as an intro to the philia group.
sounds very raw (i probably was) and thought i'd share it.... .
where do i start?
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Practice of JW concerning Facial Hair
by Reborn2002 inim relatively new to the board, but i wanted other people's opinions.. growing up in "the organization" i pretty much blindly adhered to all instruction as a teenager.. as i got a little older, as most here im sure, i began to see how some practices were imposed on the flock without any biblical backing.. one that bugged the living hell out of me was the restriction of being allowed to grow facial hair.. i was literally removed from carrying the mics and reading at bookstudy because my sideburns were too long and i wanted to grow a goatee, hence i often showed up with stubble.
i was taken to the back room and told i was being "too worldly.
" when i questioned the elders why it was unallowed by the society and that i wanted scriptural evidence and backing for their imposed regulations, i was scoffed at and told i should do as i am told.. i told them where they could stick their "priviledges" .
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Scully
To the ones higher up in the congregation, seeing another congregation member with a beard is a quick way for them to know just how 'spiritual' that person is (in the WT sense of the word). The clean shaven faces are the ones who are still mentally assimilated into the Borg, and therefore are not going to pose a problem (for now!).
When a member in good standing begins wearing a beard, it's a red flag to them that the person is on the way out, and because it's such a public act (without actually saying a word) everyone else knows it too. It amazes me that such a small matter is so critically important to their perception of control over the congregation.
Love, Scully
It is not persecution for an informed person to expose a certain religion as being false. - WT 11/15/63
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25
Bad news, folks!
by TweetieBird inmy teenage son approached my husband and me yesterday to inform us that he wants to get baptized at the summer convention.
ugh!.
he hasn't shown an interest in witness things for several months until a cousin from up north came to visit and took him out in service all day.
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Scully
I always thought it was strange how the Society would discourage quick courtships and engagements in favor of getting to know someone better before making such a huge commitment as marriage, while at the same time they say that six months' worth of 'Bible study' with the JWs is enough to make a sound decision regarding the more serious step of baptism.
I like the suggestion of pointing out the changes in the baptismal questions. I would also highlight the fact that a person's baptism is regarded by the WTS's Legal Department as a CONTRACT with the WTS and not God. This is what allows them, with impunity, to DF and DA people, as they have won legal precedent on that basis. Most jurisdictions have very specific child protection laws forbidding minor children from entering contracts, or more to the point, to keep unscrupulous adults from taking advantage of kids. How the WTS has gotten away with this for such a long time is beyond me.
I would be hesitant about introducing doctrinal issues that would raise doubts, unless you're prepared to have him confront his cousins with the same issues and have them, in turn, cause problems for you.
You can't exactly forbid him from seeing his cousins either, as they would immediately play the "persecution" card, and knowing the psychology of teens, they would just go to where you forbid them to go. It's interesting that he would choose the JWs as an issue of rebellion against you, though. I used to talk to one lady on-line about this. The more she protested against her son's involvement with the JWs, the harder they love-bombed him. Eventually he got baptized at the age of 16, married a couple of years after that, and a child very soon after that. She pulled the "as long as you live under my roof, you will not get baptized" card. The JWs helped him move out a few weeks later, and he boarded with a JW couple. They have ALL the bases covered when someone wants to join them.
While I definitely would not encourage his getting baptized, I would tell him that it's something he needs to do on the basis of ALL the information when he is legally an adult, not now and not just based on what JWs present to him. BTW, I thought a person had to study at least ONE publication (the Live Forever book was in vogue at the time I quit) prior to qualifying for baptism, in addition to answering the questions in the Organization book.
You can also let him see Timothy Campbell's website about JWs. He doesn't call them a "cult" at all because of the derogatory connotation, but refers to them as a "high control group". He also states on his main page that he is not out to 'deconvert' JWs, that his site is one of academic interest to them.
http://members.aol.com/beyondjw/
Hope it helps,
Love, ScullyIt is not persecution for an informed person to expose a certain religion as being false. - WT 11/15/63
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17
Jonestown and Watchtower Society--Similarities
by GinnyTosken inrecently in another thread, dannybear mentioned jim jones and the mass suicides at jonestown.
about two years ago when the issue of cults in france was a hot topic in ex-jw discussions, i became curious about jim jones and his followers.
i had seen the news reports and horrific footage, but i wanted to understand how a man could convince 638 of his adult followers to kill themselves and 276 children.. for me, jim jones's story is also close to home.
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Scully
teejay writes:
Wouldn't it be interesting (in a twisted kinda way) to be able to see a counter click off the number of people worldwide who have died as a direct result of their participation with 'the happiest people on earth'?
The Watchtower Victims' Memorial is a very small sampling of names of people who died as a result of not receiving blood transfusions or other WTS-policy related deaths. If people wish to add names to the list, they are welcome to do so.
http://www.ajwrb.org/victims/index.shtml
Ginny:
If you think of JWs in terms of the definition in People of the Lie it's probably safe to say that they are already 99.9% dead.Scott Peck's words (as highlighted by you) bear repeating:
When I say that evil has to do with killing, I do not mean to restrict myself to corporeal murder. Evil is also that which kills spirit. There are various essential attributes of life--particularly human life--such as sentience, mobility, awareness, growth, autonomy, will. It is possible to kill or attempt to kill one of these attributes without actually destroying the body. Thus we may "break" a horse or even a child without harming a hair on its head. Erich Fromm was acutely sensitive to this fact when he broadened the definition of necrophilia to include the desire of certain people to control others--to make them controllable, to foster their dependency, to discourage their capacity to think for themselves, to diminish their unpredictability and originality, to keep them in line. Distinguishing it from a "biophilic" person, one who appreciates and fosters the variety of life forms and the uniqueness of the individual, he demonstrated a "necrophilic character type," whose aim it is to avoid the inconvenience of life by transforming others into obedient automatons, robbing them of their humanity.
That quote is a keeper!Love, Scully
It is not persecution for an informed person to expose a certain religion as being false. - WT 11/15/63
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JW Education Status
by Scully inthis was posted on alt.religion.jehovahs-witn, just thought i'd share it with you:.
the following figures from an article in newsweek represent the number of college graduates within each religious group in america.
can this be used to relate the intelligence of the membership of each religion?
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Scully
Jourles writes:
Take for instance my mother. She believes, even after pointing out what the WTS's website says, that everyone that is not a witness will be destroyed at armageddon. When my uncle died a few years ago, she said that it was best for him to die rather than for him to remain living during armageddon, as he would be killed later with no chance of a resurrection. She now says the same for my grandfather who is fairly close to dying. "I hope he dies soon so that he can be resurrected in the paradise." BITCH!
This is the prevailing attitude among JWs. When my parents became JWs in the early 70s, they were highly offended when my grandparents said they were not interested in following their path. It was apparent that my grandparents were "beyond hope" in this life, so the only hope that my parents had was for them to die and receive a resurrection. When my maternal grandfather died over 20 years ago, my mom refused to go to the funeral because (a) the service was being held in a church; and (b) he was better off dead because he would be eligible for a resurrection.
The same thing happened when each of my paternal grandparents died. While we attended the funeral services because they were NOT held in a church, my parents both voiced relief at their passing because they would have a chance to see for themselves that the JWs were 'right' when they were resurrected.
I honestly do not remember my parents expressing grief the way one normally would upon the loss of a parent. In fact, we were cautioned against feeling sad or grieving "too much", because after all we had the "resurrection hope" that 'ignorant worldly people' did not have.
The JW woman whom I had considered to be my best friend, told me just before I made my final decision to leave the JWs "If you are going to turn your back on The Truth™ then your three beautiful children would be better off if you took them out in the back yard and blew their heads off with a gun. That way they will have a resurrection in the Paradise and won't go down with you at Armageddon." That sick twisted statement was the last straw. I walked away and never looked back.
I'm so glad I did that.
Love, Scully
It is not persecution for an informed person to expose a certain religion as being false. - WT 11/15/63
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JW Education Status
by Scully inthis was posted on alt.religion.jehovahs-witn, just thought i'd share it with you:.
the following figures from an article in newsweek represent the number of college graduates within each religious group in america.
can this be used to relate the intelligence of the membership of each religion?
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Scully
This is an interesting follow-up to the 1990 survey:
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/011025/nyth023_1.html
Thursday October 25, 2001, 11:00 am Eastern Time
Press ReleaseSOURCE: Graduate Center of the City University of New York
Graduate Center Survey of Religion in America Complements U.S. Census
NEW YORK, Oct. 25 /PRNewswire/ -- Fifty-two percent of adults in America are Protestant, 24.5% are Catholic, and 14.1% adhere to no religion, according to the latest American Religious Identification Survey, 2001 ("ARIS 2001") just released by The Graduate Center of the City University of New York. Those giving their religion as Jewish are 1.3% and those as Muslim or Islamic are 0.5%.
With a sample of over 50,000 randomly selected respondents aged 18 or over, ARIS 2001 is the most comprehensive portrait of religious identification in the U.S. today. First conducted in 1990 and repeated this year, the survey fills a gap left by the Census, which does not ask about religion. Nearly 95% of those interviewed were willing to indicate their religious identification and views on important questions about their beliefs. The findings, weighted to be representative of the 208 million U.S. adult population, include national and state-by-state examinations of religious identification in relation to racial/ethnic identification, education, age, marital status, voter registration status and political party preference. The complete report will be available on The Graduate Center's web site at http://www.gc.cuny.edu/folio/index.htm
ARIS 2001 is closely modeled on The Graduate Center's 1990 National Survey of Religious Identification (NSRI), permitting many comparisons:
* Catholic adults increased from 46.0 million to nearly 50.8 million, but their proportion in the population fell by nearly two percentage points.
* Although Protestant and other non-Catholic denominations remain the majority, with more than 105.4 million adult adherents, their proportion slid sharply from 60% to 52%.
* 2.8 million adults give their religion as Jewish, down from about 3.1 million in 1990. Another 2.5 million, who say they have no religion or identify with another religion, are of Jewish parentage, were raised Jewish or consider themselves Jewish.
* The number of adults who identify with a non-Christian religion rose sharply, from about 5.8 million to 7.7 million. However, their proportion remains small, 3.7% up from 3.3% in 1990.
* Muslim/Islamic adults total 1.1 million -- nearly double the number in 1990. Those identifying their race as black are 23% of the group; the others overwhelmingly identify as white or Asian.One of the most striking 1990-2001 comparisons is the more than doubling of the adult population identifying with no religion, from 14.3 million (8%) in 1990 to the current 29.4 million (14.1%). The 1990 figure may be downwardly biased due to a slight change in the wording of the key survey question in 2001. In seeking a more accurate measure of identification, the clause "if any" was added this year to the question, "What religion do you identify with?" The prior wording may have subtly prompted respondents to name some religion.
ARIS 2001 goes further than its predecessor in investigating such new territory as membership in a place of worship, change of religious identification over one's lifetime, and religion of the spouse or partner of respondents. Findings reveal, among other things, a huge gap between religious identification and affiliation with a place of worship. Although 81% of America's adults identify with a religion, only 54% reside in a household where anyone belongs to a church, temple, synagogue, mosque or other place of worship. About 20% of those who say they have no religion (including many atheists and agnostics) nevertheless report that they or someone else in their household is a member of a religious congregation. About 40% of adults who describe themselves as "religious" report no membership in any religious congregation. Other noteworthy findings:
* Catholics are the majority in Rhode Island (51%) and the largest single category in Massachusetts (44%); Mormons are the majority in Utah (51%) and Baptists are the majority in Mississippi (55%).
* New York is home to more of America's Jews (25%) and Muslims (24%) than any other state. New York is also home to the largest percent of the nations Taoists (26%), and Greek Orthodox (17%).
* California has the highest percent of the nations Jehovah's Witnesses (17%) as well as of Hindus (30%). California also has the nations largest cluster of those with no religion (15%).
* Pennsylvania has the largest number of the nation's Mennonites (18%) while Wisconsin has the largest clustering of Lutherans (10%).
* The median age of all adults is 43 years. For Catholics it is 42, for Jews its is 51, and for Muslims it is 28. The median age of those who identify with no religion is 36 years.
* Married adults and others living in a couple relationship are most likely to have a spouse or a partner of a different faith if they are Episcopalian (50%) or Buddhist (47%).
* Jehovah's Witnesses have the highest proportion of female adherents (68%), followed by Church of God (64%); the highest proportion of male adherents is among Muslims (62%) and Buddhists (61%).
* Adherents of Assemblies of God are the most apt to describe themselves as Republicans (59%); Jews are the most Democrat-leaning (56%), and Buddhists are the most independent with respect to political party preference (48%).
* Black adults are most likely to give their religion as Baptist (47%) or as no religion (11%); Native Americans are most likely to give their religion as Baptists (20%) or as no religion (19%).
* Hispanics are most likely to give their religion as Catholic (57%), followed by no religion (13%).The study was directed by Dr. Egon Mayer, Professor of Sociology at The Graduate Center and Brooklyn College, and Dr. Barry Kosmin, who also directed the 1990 religion study, along with research fellow and demographer Dr. Ariela Keysar. Dr. Kosmin was co-author, along with now State Senator Seymour Lachman, of One Nation Under God: Religion in Contemporary America (Harmony Books, 1993), the widely referenced book on the 1990 NSRI. He is currently a visiting professor in the Study of Religions Department at University College in Chichester, England.
As in 1990, the data were gathered on behalf of The Graduate Center by the ICR Survey Research Group in Media, PA. The survey was funded by the Posen Foundation.
The Graduate Center is the doctorate-granting institution of The City University of new York. The only consortium of its kind in the nation, The Graduate Center draws its faculty of more than 1,600 members mainly from the CUNY senior colleges and cultural and scientific institutions throughout New York City.
SOURCE: Graduate Center of the City University of New York
It is not persecution for an informed person to expose a certain religion as being false. - WT 11/15/63
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JW Education Status
by Scully inthis was posted on alt.religion.jehovahs-witn, just thought i'd share it with you:.
the following figures from an article in newsweek represent the number of college graduates within each religious group in america.
can this be used to relate the intelligence of the membership of each religion?
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Scully
RunningMan:
As I noted at the beginning of the post, the reference to Newsweek was posted in the Usenet Newsgroup alt.religion.jehovahs-witnI have requested references from the poster, and await their reply.
Love, Scully
It is not persecution for an informed person to expose a certain religion as being false. - WT 11/15/63
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37
JW Education Status
by Scully inthis was posted on alt.religion.jehovahs-witn, just thought i'd share it with you:.
the following figures from an article in newsweek represent the number of college graduates within each religious group in america.
can this be used to relate the intelligence of the membership of each religion?
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-
Scully
This was posted on alt.religion.jehovahs-witn, just thought i'd share it with you:
The following figures from an article in NEWSWEEK represent the number of college graduates within each religious group in America. Can this be used to relate the intelligence of the membership of each religion? Damn right it can! And hey, I bet everyone reading this had a pretty good idea who would place last:
Unitarian 49.5
Hindu 47.0
Jewish 46.7
New Age 40.6
Episcopal 39.2
Agnostic 36.3
Presbyterian 33.8
Congregationalist 33.7
Buddhist 33.4
Eastern Orthodox 31.6
Muslim 30.4
National Average 24%
Evangelical 21.5
Methodist 21.1
Catholic 20.0
Mormon 19.2
Churches of Christ 14.6
Assemblies of God 13.7
Nazarene 12.5
Baptist 10.4
Pentecostal 6.9
Holiness 5.0
Jehovah's Witness 4.7I'm sure we all knew JWs would rank quite low (wow, last place!!), but I'm surprised at the <5% figure. The WTS opened the way for JWs to attend college (albeit with conditions) over 10 years ago and I would have hoped to see the numbers improve in that time.
Love, Scully
It is not persecution for an informed person to expose a certain religion as being false. - WT 11/15/63
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17
Jonestown and Watchtower Society--Similarities
by GinnyTosken inrecently in another thread, dannybear mentioned jim jones and the mass suicides at jonestown.
about two years ago when the issue of cults in france was a hot topic in ex-jw discussions, i became curious about jim jones and his followers.
i had seen the news reports and horrific footage, but i wanted to understand how a man could convince 638 of his adult followers to kill themselves and 276 children.. for me, jim jones's story is also close to home.
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Scully
LDH writes:
If the WTBS were headed up by one nutbrain individual (instead of the nine or ten), people would be much quicker to note that 'he' made false predictions, and become disillusioned. This is why less than one thousand died in Guyana instead of tens of thousands.
Unfortunately, the cumulative damage done by the WTS is far worse than what Jim Jones accomplished in one fell swoop. The number of deaths that have happened over the years for lack of blood transfusions, for lack of organ transplants, the suicides that occurred when people were disfellowshipped and cut off from the only social network they had ever known, and so on..... the numbers I can only imagine would equal several Jonestowns. It's still the same brainwashing that takes place.... people are willing to DIE for this organization; and probably, if the GB ever gave New Light to that effect, would be willing to KILL for it too.... no questions asked.
Thanks for all this info Ginny.... I'm printing it out for future reference, and also bookmarking this thread. I'm so glad you took the time to share this with us.
Love, Scully
It is not persecution for an informed person to expose a certain religion as being false. - WT 11/15/63
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Wasted Life Story..The Uncaring Husband 1.2.02WT
by ISP inthis is the wasted life story from the feb 1 2002 wt.. i would have entitled it the uncaring husband........ this guy gets married in 1954. tragically his wife has to have an operation to remove a brain tumor in 1957. this leaves her in a fairly desperate state.. as a result, my wife was left partially paralysed , and her speech center was badly affected.
now a whole set of complicated challenges arose for both of us.
even the simplest task became a major obstacle for my dear wife.
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Scully
There's something about this story that is completely pathetic and makes me want to throw up.
Maybe it's the "poor me, poor me" martyr-in-the-making tone that he seems to be taking.
Maybe it's the way he used his wife as a billboard on the streetcorners while he went and attended to "Kingdom business".
Then again, it could be his complete and utter disregard for her wishes. It seems that she never had any say whatsoever in anything, and that he just assumed that whatever he did was fine with her. If he parked her on the streetcorner with a pile of Watchtower literature and a tin cup, there was absolutely nothing she could do about it. She could barely speak, for crying out loud!!
If he'd taken a proper job he very likely could have provided better care for her with the assistance of health care professionals. But instead of giving her the care she deserved, he drags her on his Kingdom Quest, and plays on the pity of onlookers to use her as his own little freak show for Jehovah. How loving of him!
After years of that kind of abuse (let's call it what it is, shall we?) I'd be looking for a steel door to whack me into a coma too!
I can't wait to hear about this experience being used to guilt all these poor old JWs in nursing homes about getting in their 15 minutes per month!
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
Love, Scully
It is not persecution for an informed person to expose a certain religion as being false. - WT 11/15/63