Posts by jwundubbed

20

Michael Jackson Jehovah's Witness Thriller

by researcher1010 in

i'm a reporter working on a series about michael jackson.

part of this series will look at his life as a jehovah's witness and his relationship to the faith.

i've already spoken to a few ex-witnesses and one elder who have explained jw 101 beliefs and teachings.

jwundubbed

@Atlantis

I can't open your link. Do you have a copy of the actual Awake! article?

20

Michael Jackson Jehovah's Witness Thriller

by researcher1010 in

i'm a reporter working on a series about michael jackson.

part of this series will look at his life as a jehovah's witness and his relationship to the faith.

i've already spoken to a few ex-witnesses and one elder who have explained jw 101 beliefs and teachings.

jwundubbed

I'm a reporter working on a series about Michael Jackson. Part of this series will look at his life as a Jehovah's Witness and his relationship to the faith. I've already spoken to a few ex-witnesses and one elder who have explained JW 101 beliefs and teachings. I've read stories about Michael going door to door even around the height of Thriller, and also that he received so much pressure from his elders about the Thriller video that he almost destroyed it. And a year later, he apologized in the May 1984 edition of Awake.

I hope that you have spoken to his family about this. That is the only way you would know what his relationship to the faith was. I do believe that Michael Jackson (MJ) might have had pressure from his family about his Thriller video but not from the elders. They wouldn’t have known about the video until after it came out and at that point it would be useless to try to destroy it. Michael Jackson had a contract and legalities he had to deal with and I doubt very seriously that the elders would have wanted to get into that mess.

But you also seem to have a serious misunderstanding about what the general Jehovah'sWitnesses (JWs) population understands about celebrity JWs. They aren’t held to the same standards as regular JWs. They can fulfill their requirements to ‘witness’ by saying ‘Jehovah’ or giving Jehovah credit on their platform, whatever that may be. If they say it in an interview, on TV, to a reporter, or at one of their events they are reaching thousands if not millions of people in one go. Why would they need to go door-to-door. It seems much more likely that they would only go door-to-door as a publicity stunt of some sort and the doors they would be going to wouldn’t be the typical doors everyone else knocks on.

Do you have a copy of that Awake! magazine? I would very much like to see it. I don’t remember that and I would have paid attention because my sister was a huge MJ fan at the time and I was reading the Awake! magazines at that time.

This is a hail mary long shot request, but is there anyone here with first-hand experience meeting or working with Michael as a JW? I've heard that Michael would have been called before a discipline committee for the Thriller video, where he would have made a case not to be disfellowshipped. Even a longer shot, does anyone know or can connect me with an elder who might have dealt with Michael?

Yes, that is a Hail Mary. I don’t personally believe that Michael Jackson ever had the typical JW experience. It is possible… except that video really shot him into the status of a rock star. I doubt the Watchtower society (WTS) would want to get rid of someone who was so popular. I mean, his ability to ‘witness’ to billions of people would have made him a person they would want to keep. The rest of the world loved that album. The video was clearly a theatrical musical piece. Also, the WTS has always been very inconsistent about what things are allowed, what is not allowed, and what is ‘up to the person’s conscience’. The fact that we were never told to avoid the Thriller video/song actually speaks volumes to make me believe that there was never any to-do about it at all.

So… no, I personally, find that very unlikely that this ever happened. It just doesn’t make much sense. Most JWs I know of never really thought of Michael Jackson (nor the Williams sisters, nor Prince) as being real JWs and we don’t expect them to behave like regular JWs and we don’t expect them to be held to the same standard as the rest of us. The WTS has different standards for people in different countries, and different standards for people of different status in the US. Celebrities and ultra-rich people get a far different treatment. So far, I don’t see you mentioning any credible sources for your information.

Last question/request. In 1987, it was reported that Michael disassociated himself from the JWs. The LA Times cited a letter from the then Brooklyn headquarters dated May 18th 1987 that the organization "no longer considers Michael Jackson to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses." Does anyone remember this being said in Kingdom Hall? Any MJ fans out there who would have kept the letter? The reporter from the Times has unfortunately passed away.

The LA Times cited a letter. They didn’t publish it as an open letter. That tells me that the letter being mentioned wasn’t a letter that was put out by the Watchtower society as an official statement. That tells me that the only congregation that might have had that information announced from the stage would have been the congregation that Michael Jackson was actually a member of. That is the way the Watchtower society works. And if you have people telling you about the beliefs then you should have people telling you about the procedures as well.

To the best of my knowledge the Watchtower society never officially and publicly acknowledged Michael Jackson, nor the Williams sisters, nor Prince in any way whatsoever. And it makes sense that they wouldn’t. They wouldn’t want to highlight the deferential treatment. They also wouldn’t want to be put into the position of having to publicly censure or to be held responsible for a celebrity who behaved in a way that contradicted the JW beliefs. The very fact that celebrities have activities that are more important than the JWs is a disfellowshipping offense. The fact that celebrities do drugs and hang out with amoral people is a disfellowshipping offense, and one that is also common public knowledge. The very things that make a person a celebrity are all things that would keep them from being a regular JW. They wouldn’t be acknowledged to be Jehovah’s Witnesses publicly nor officially, and they wouldn’t be publicly and officially excommunicated from the cult. It would be up to the celebrity to decide if they wanted to make that information public. So my guess would be that the ‘letter’ that is referenced is a letter that Michael Jackson (or possibly his lawyer) obtained and gave to the journalist, not something that would have been made available to anyone else.

Quite frankly, your assumptions about Michael Jackson’s experience and your serious lack of evidentiary proof and looking to anecdotal proof instead doesn’t make you look like a credible journalist. It also is curious to me that you have not in any way mentioned all the rampant and heinous child abusers that the Watchtower society has been found to be protecting (according to court documents and Australian Royal Commission) and yet have not questioned if there is any correlation between that and Michael Jackson’s own accusers. I would think, that at this point, that would be a subject for any article talking about MJ and the JWs. Leaving that out makes me think you are doing a fluff piece instead of something with more journalistic integrity. But… that is just my opinion and has nothing to do with anything. Good luck in your endeavor.

Edited to remove typos.

5

Dating with a guy

by Renee86 in

hi,.

if you date a jw guy do you say to each other you are actually dating or courting?.

jwundubbed

Neither. You go on group dates, which you call 'hanging out' until you are engaged and then you can go on chaperoned dates up until you get married. That is what happens if you are a 'by the book' JW. If you are a more typical JW... you have the side you show the JWs and the side that enjoys itself. So you group date for the JWs and they are never the wiser (about your actual dates on the sly) until you rush into a wedding.

But you never call any of it 'courting' nor 'dating'.

Well, that's how it was in my day, anyway.

5

This is how desperate they are

by Anony Mous in

so, back in the day, when you had an 'unruly child' and/or family members, your privileges were removed pretty much instantly right?

my entire childhood i had to hear about how me being bad in the hall or someone telling the elders about what's happening at our home, that's making it so my stepfather never gets or keeps appointments.

so always be good, don't tell anyone anything, so the men can become servants and elders and the women pioneers.. so i hear this about an elder family that pretty much broke apart.

jwundubbed

So, back in the day, when you had an 'unruly child' and/or family members, your privileges were removed pretty much instantly right?

My experience was that there were always the favored families and the unfavorable families. I saw what you say you experienced and what those other families get away with simultaneously in every congregation I was ever in... I've been in 10-15 congregations.

16

Do Jehovah's Witnesses shun non-believers and those who leave the faith?

by Vanderhoven7 in

graeme hammond writes:.

in his 2002 book that examined the behaviour and practices of jehovah’s witnesses, english sociologist andrew holden devoted an entire chapter to the trauma and friction experienced by those who choose to leave the jehovah’s witness religion.

“those who do eventually break free,” he concluded, “are seldom allowed a dignified exit.”.

jwundubbed

The answer to shunning is always the same regardless of if the person is DF, DA, or just plain worldly (ie. non-believer).

"Bad associations spoil useful habits".

Or in other words... If you are around people who question, criticize, or just think differently you will be effected. Cults don't want to lose members so they create a code of exclusivity that keeps their members sheltered from free thought.

135

Serious Question: Are You Hearing About Anyone With The Flu Anymore or A Cold?

by minimus in

jw
friends

for years everyone was told they had to get the flu shot.

because the flu was dangerous and it could even kill you.

now, hardly anyone talks about the flu or having a cold.

jwundubbed

By this I mean don't allow yourself to get overweight because a lot of the victims of Covid were obese.

Too late. And the pandemic didn't help that at all. I gained the pandemic 50 instead of the pandemic 15. But, Yeah. My step-brother was obese. He had even been losing weight.

The gym never made me sick... but I used to wipe down the equipment with cleaning spray before and after I used it. Adults are big kids and need reminders to clean up after themselves, but unlike kids they just choose not to when they don't want to. I ended doing the home gym because it made life easier. I just got a rowing machine and I use YouTube for exercise videos of all kinds. I can even watch full videos of Richard Simmons... I always loved his videos.

135

Serious Question: Are You Hearing About Anyone With The Flu Anymore or A Cold?

by minimus in

jw
friends

for years everyone was told they had to get the flu shot.

because the flu was dangerous and it could even kill you.

now, hardly anyone talks about the flu or having a cold.

jwundubbed

The fact is that people who remained isolated got it. The majority of those however, are poor or elderly, live in apartment buildings or other shared housing complexes where air supplies are shared. Hence the Lancet indicating the virus can be found in air ducts where the only pathway is through the air.

I'm poor. I've been poor most of my life. I have lived in those types of communities all my life. I have to say that elderly people are likely to come into contact with people even if they do isolate because they are more likely to need assistance. They might have their food delivered or have someone who 'helps out' and they have to go to the doctor more frequently than the average person. This means traveling, and going into buildings, and other average activities that would bring them into contact with other people. I've been working as a customer care rep for a state unemployment agency during the pandemic and I guarantee to you that those people who 'isolated' did not consider the people delivering their food, or the family members who stopped by to help them but didn't live with them to be outside of their 'isolation'. At least two thirds of them would have assumed that those people were included as part of their isolation. I've had those conversations with elderly people and they assume that anyone asking feels the same way they do and defines isolation the same way that they do... meaning isolating from everyone who isn't necessary in their lives... not isolating from anyone who could bring them into contact with the virus.

As to poor people.... they are less likely to have groceries and other items delivered because they can't afford that. That means going to the store or the food bank when they need things and that means coming into contact with people who could spread the virus.

I've lived in the types of low economy housing you mention, and those places rarely have good air systems. I have no idea if COVID can or cannot get into air ducts, but I do know that low income housing often has air ducts that don't work properly.... either putting out too much air or not enough.

So... even people isolating could come into contact with the virus in very normal ways. We don't know the specifics of anyone's situation. Offering up anecdotes means nothing. But even giving specifics as has been offered... doesn't go into the detail and fully explain any situations. The reality is... we don't know. We don't know how much the virus spreads when people are in isolation because very few people actually have the ability to fully isolate themselves. We also don't know what the realities of the spread are because the virus hasn't behaved in the ways we are accustomed to.

I spent the first year of the pandemic with little change in my life. I had an essential job that did not bring me into any more contact with people than it had before. I worked at a medical lab, but it was a clean lab that didn't test anything that could infect anyone. Like I said before, I'm poor. So I continued to go to the grocery store, I continued to ride the bus, and I continued to work. I had been wearing a mask for 10 years prior to the pandemic so that wasn't anything new either. And I didn't get the virus during that entire time. Then for the next year I moved and lived with family. I self-quarantined (more so because my brother had cancer and I didn't want to infect him with anything), I have all my food delivered. I do all my shopping online. I only meet up with family when we can do so with social distancing. And I still haven't had the virus. The strange part is that I'm a high-risk individual and I have always gotten whatever sick was going around. But I haven't gotten COVID. I got the Johnson&Johnson vaccine because I'm a high risk individual. I would rather be safe than sorry. I didn't have any blood clotting problems. I didn't feel any negative effects from the vaccine at all. And I still haven't gotten COVID. My brother-in-law who has always been low risk and rarely gets sick, got COVID and died within a week. I personally, think that we just don't know enough to even know what we don't know with this virus.

But I should say... to me COVID isn't much different than the flu. Both could kill me. In fact there are so many things that can kill me that it is just one more to add to a very long list. People who are familiar with dealing with contagious infections that can kill them aren't freaking out over COVID. I already washed my hands or wore gloves when I needed to. I already wore a mask to protect my lungs, even when it was hot and uncomfortable. Most of the more substantial precautions I have taken have been to relieve the minds of my family who I actually want to see and spend time with. Not everyone is hyperventilating about COVID. And I will be getting a flu shot when flu season comes around. I doubt I will get the flu this season as I'm not around people as much as I used to be. I'm not riding on the bus anymore with poor people who don't know how to cover their mouths when they cough and sneeze. I'm no longer working with children, as I did before the (my part-time job was lost when the daycare shut down because of the pandemic), and children definitely spread the flu. I don't know if this year will solve the riddle in this thread because more children have gone back to school and we aren't in flu season yet. We might hear just as much about the flu when that time of year comes around. Especially if people aren't getting flu shots... I can imagine people will think the Covid vaccine works on the flu as well, even thought that isn't true.

11

Why do Men just want to control each other, and have control over you.

by pistolpete in

it seems like the moment someone attains some type of power, whether it's money, political power, or religious power, their first agenda is ---to control others.. bill gates is a good example of this.

another is george soros and michael bloomberg.

and let's not forget all the politician and religious leaders like the governing body.

jwundubbed

It's called patriarchy.

If you want men to stop wanting to be in control... you would need to change our society from a patriarchy into something else. Is there even a word for a society that isn't ruled and controlled by a specific gender?

9

A Site About the Governing Body

by Anna Marina in

this site puts the spotlight on gb's teachings, actions and policies.. the governing body of jehovah's witnesses - putting a spotlight on their teachings, actions, and policies.

the latest article examines the reasons why it is not scriptural to apply the two witness rule to child sexual abuse cases.. the “two witness rule”, is it scriptural to apply it to child sexual abuse cases?

- the governing body of jehovah's witnesses.

jwundubbed

I would prefer they included why it isn't legal or moral, or even realistic to use a two-witness rule for any sexual abuse cases.

13

Anyone have your local cong. give out papers to say what you can afford to give the cult?

by mickbobcat in

back in the late 80s i can remember my local cong.

pass around a paper that had a place for head of house hold name and how much they can afford to give every month for one year.

but i remember the elders said they needed to know what they can bank on to know what they can afford to borrow to remodel ect.

jwundubbed

I remember this happening a few times, at least once that was not in relation to a remodeling excuse.