Hi Bonnie38,
to me Upstate NY is anything north of Westchester County, which is basically the entire state outside of NYC.
I live in the Catskill Region/Mid-Hudson Valley. I am one hour south of Albany.
Sean
SEAKEN2001
JoinedPosts by SEAKEN2001
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18
April 20 is a sad anniversary for my family
by Mulan inon april 20, 1977, my brother's wife, janice, died as a result of complications from childbirth.
the baby, their only son, also died unnamed.
this is a photo of my brother and janice .
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SEAKEN2001
Mulan,
that was the saddest day of my life prior to 2001. I am so disgusted that I went along with the rumor mill Mrs Rocky speaks of. I had no idea of the things your brother was facing. But he was an apostate because he left and dared to explore new ideas. What a waste. Please accept my appologies and condolences on this anniversary of Janice's death. Please pass along my thoughts to your brother and the girls. I miss you all terribly. I wish I could be there to give you all a hug in person. I love you all.
Sean
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23,720 JW child molesters
by silentlambs ininside sources reveal,.
23,720 and counting..... .
child molesters on file at the home office in patterson ny .. this is now posted on the front page of my website.
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SEAKEN2001
Hello everyone,
I've been following this thread with interest. This is obviously a very emotional issue for everyone. I can only imagine the horror of having gone through what some of you have, and are, going through. I hope that everyone will appologize to one another and get back to helping the abused and prosecuting the criminals.
May I ask how many of you who have commented on this subject are lawers or judges in the US legal system? As I see this, most here are not lawers but are advocates and concerned individuals who have strong opinions about this issue. All of you want the same thing. I'm not sure you are all trying to understand one another and clarify your own positions. There is room for argument and clarification and it may prove to be a helpful thing should there be a chance to take this issue up in a court of law. However, I don't see this as merely a legal issue nor bound by legal parameters.
I can't quite understand how any of us here, who have experience as former JW's or curently active JW's who recognize the claims of authority by the organization as false, can ignore that regardless of written policy, the WT machine will do whatever is in it's best interests, victims be damned. Why are some of us here picking up on possible inconsistancies of reporting when we know full well that the standard operating procedure for this organization is to cover up and protect their butt? Who among us is going to stand up in defense of the procedures used by the heirarchy in this organization in an effort to point out that not all JW's are bad? Does it matter that the elders, or even the Society men, think that they are doing what is right according to God's will?
I think I understand Bill's frustration here, even though I too was disappointed with some of his remarks that could have been taken as offensive by some here who are obviously very sensitive over this issue. And I will admit that I am not as sensitive and I may have come on pretty strong in reaction to some of the criticism here as well, just as Bill did. What I don't understand is why some of us feel it is necessary to enter a legal debate and pick at straws when the reality of this whole issue should obvious to us all.
The WT has clearly shown it's possition over the years and they will continue to do so. Wake up! They do not care about us! They only care about the organization! It may be tempting to try and be reasonable and avoid attacking the WT because you know people inside who are good people. Your knoble attempts at sparing them will not be returned. They do not care about you. Again. They do not care about you! They will protect themselves and their organization at all costs in the name of God. If that means lying and deceiving, or any other act you may personaly object to, they will do it. And you'll get stepped on in spite of your taking the high road. Get it? They don't care about you!
I have an idea. Why don't we give Bill the benefit of the doubt and work to understand where he's coming from before we attempt to justify our own idea of what is right and just end up pissing him off? If you need clarification, fine. But don't be surprised if you get yelled at because you haven't done your own homework. 'Waiting' made it pretty clear that had we followed the links and done our homework we could have got the clarification we needed.
I'm sure Bill understands that in the legal arena he will need to be fastidious and careful. I do not believe his post on this thread was intended as a legal brief. I took it as a point of information and a link to specifics on what this information means for his SL website. I, for one, appreciated it very much.
Thank you Bill.
Sean
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47
Complete reversal: from Witness to atheist
by Ephanyminitas ini'm pretty new here (five minutes old!
) and i'm curious: how many have left the organization and, in time, become athiests.
i was raised in the organization, so growing up, my thinking was -- of course -- stifled.
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SEAKEN2001
JT, yeah, I'm toast! Bummer!
Saltiest, I took it as a joke.
Mulan, wow. I didn't know. You heretic you. Cousin D will just have to practice some of that unconditional love, eh? I hesitate to bring the subject up with my dad too because I know he's so attached to his belief in Christ as God's son. My decision to understand Christ and spirit as nothing more than human ideas does not prevent me from believing there is a God, at at least what we have come to call a god. But it does put me at odds with many Christians who continue to believe that we all need to be saved. I love reading stuff on psychology and mythology and a lot of what we describe about how we think can be thought of as spirituality and godliness, or wicked. I like to simplify it in my own mind as God is Good and Wicked/Satan is Bad, at least in my culture.
Five Gospels, enjoyed your comments. I'm not sure I agree with your comment about the "prevalence" of athiest's among former JW's. Maybe that is something that can be shown by doing a study and gathering data, I don't know. Most of the former JW's I have come accross have not become athiests. Many move on to some other Christian type church or personal belief system and a lot just keep their opinions to themselves. I think this board is fairly well populated by athiests but there are many Christians and other god-believers here, most of whom are probably not as expressive as the athiests. There are many more boards on the internet that are populated with former JW's who are evangelist types and Biblical apologists. I'm just not sure that there is more of a tendency to become an athiest than it is to move to another form of god-believer. If you have some data on this I'd be interested in reviewing it. I can't imagine that doing a comprehensive story on this would be very easy. How do we get to all those former JW's who aren't on the public internet?
I have learned to accept that many former JW's who become Christian wish that I would become Christian like them. I tolerate that and am happy that many Christians have learned to tolerate my lack of faith. But most people I associate with (most of whom are not former JW's) have their belief in God but do not share it with me unless I ask them to. One of my friends lives a very disciplined life with an Eastern philosphy and he is more "godly" than most of the western Christian or Jewish friends I have. That type of circumstance always interests me. I have to ask why a man who does not believe in a personal God acts more like the Christian god or the benevolent Hebrew god than those who claim to believe in a personal relationship with those dieties. An interesting phenomenon. No comments from me about what that says about anyones religion. It just tells me that people are godly in their personality not because there is a god but because they want to be that way. I try to live what I see as a godly or good life but do not feel it's necessary to life whether there is a God or not.
Sean
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51
It hit the fan
by truthseeker1 inwell, to bring you guys up to speed, here is what happend this weekend.
i told my wife how i was feeling and why i didn't believe the wt was not god's org.
it went pretty bad.
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SEAKEN2001
Good luck, truthseeker. I hope it goes well for you.
You should know that taking several translations with you to the meeting will not help you. It may hurt your chances of remaining in the group. JW elders see that as confrontational and as evidence of disobedience to the organization who has provided you with the correct translation. Other translations can only be used to confirm what is already understood as truth by the Witnesses. Do not attempt to overturn their interpretations with alternate understandings. If you agree to let them do the teaching they will probably tolerate your "weird" ideas and allow you to remain in the fold. Just don't try to convince anybody else that your undertanding is more correct than the Organization. That is not allowed. Silence and "weakness" is tolerated. Knowledge and reasoning and thinking is not.
Sean
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Kinky details to JW boys death
by Kep inthis boys disappearance was big news in nz.. searches were done a number of times in the area.. finally his body was found.. this article has just appeared with some rather unusual details surrounding his disappearance.. http://www.stuff.co.nz/inl/index/0,1008,1159345a11,ff.html.
you might have to key in the full address to open the article, but i've pasted it as well.. teen went missing after prank .
07 april 2002 .
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SEAKEN2001
You guys will argue about anything! Just reading the article did not give me the idea that anything kinky was going on. I thought maybe New Zealanders used that word differently. Anyway, there's a lot of speculation here and precious few facts to start accusing people of murder or rape. Lots of stupidity and poor behavior and the death of a little boy. Very little to go on to start making accusations. Perhaps it would be better to hold your fingers before you type out something stupid?
Sean
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51
The Watchtower's 'Lost Generation'
by metatron ini visited some relatives in my extended family and found exactly.
the same situation as elsewhere in witness congregations.. the next generation of witnesses isn't there.. a friend of mine, who still goes to some meetings, made the.
same observation independently.
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SEAKEN2001
Xander,
umm, I'm trying to think how I would have handled that question. Uhh...
Oh, how 'bout this?
Where did you get information? Who have you been talking to? Do you trust that the F&DS is directed by God or not?
That's the only way to handle it. The facts speak for themselves and there is no way I could explain it. But...
I didn't really want to talk about that. Let's change the subject. How 'bout those Yanks, eh? (That would have been a typical response from any of my "brothers" had I asked them such a question)
Sean
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"You Are Expected to Believe As We Do"...
by stevieb1 ini am currently having visits made on me by the elders,who are trying to help me "unbelieve" the things i have learned to be true from the bible, which naturally contradict wt doctrine.. as well as asking me "where else will you go" they said that members of the public walking into a kingdom hall expect all within it to be jehovah's witnesses holding firmly to their doctrines and not holding divergent viewpoints like i do.
they said it would not be proper for someone to hold a belief that was contrary to the society and still be expected to remain a jw, even in name only.
i have stated to them that i can no longer preach the wt version of the "good news" so they automatically assumed that i am not obeying jesus' command to preach.. i am in a bit of a predicament as you can see.
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SEAKEN2001
stevie,
what do you want? That's the crux of it. But whatever you decide to do will have consequences. That's the unfortunate reality of having been involved with a cult religion. If you want to justify your beliefs and prove to the JW's that they are in error you have a long road to walk. If all you want is to be able to remain a JW but just not a believer that will depend on how these guys react to your questioning and how they see your motives.
If you want to stay in you should immediately take the position of "weak" and assure them that you are trying to get honest answers to your doubts. Ask for their help but tell them that you are aware that Jehovah will answer your questions in time. DO NOT admit to them that you question the F&DS or the Organization. If they ask that just say something like "I'm trying hard to keep that in focus and just wait on Jehovah. Just give me a little time, I'll be fine". Then drop it. Go to some meetings and keep quiet. Then you can drift away or keep involved as a "weak" brother, as long as you stay silent.
If you want to make your exit then keep talking to these guys and handing them your copies of "apostate" literature. They will DF you as soon as they can convene a committee.
Troubled's comments were fairly good. I disagree with the oft repeated grouping of all Ex-JW's together as if they had some common agenda. That is not the case. I can assure you I am much happier now that I am not a JW. But some people are much happier in a controlled group like the JW's. That may be you. If so, be careful what you say and who you say it to. If you want to think and say what you want then the world is the place for you. There are many fantastic people in the world and if you are the type of person who likes to learn and experience life this is a great place to do it. Again, what do you want?
(For those Christians here who don't understand - "world" refers to ANYONE not a JW. To a JW being out of the Org is to go back to the "world". There is no "Christian" verses the world outside of the Org. All you Christians are in the "world" along with everyone else and are soon to be destroyed)
JW's will not allow you to entertain that question. Their goal is to control what people believe and what they do so that they can all survive when God comes and wipes everybody else out. All the rest of this stuff is just immaterial. You're either in or out. There's no "in name only". That would be put on the "out" side of the equation. Any who are not in are gonna be killed very soon now. So make up your mind. Are you in or out?
I hope you see the rediculousness of that. If you do, I think I know what your choice will be.
Sean
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51
It hit the fan
by truthseeker1 inwell, to bring you guys up to speed, here is what happend this weekend.
i told my wife how i was feeling and why i didn't believe the wt was not god's org.
it went pretty bad.
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SEAKEN2001
Hi truthseeker1,
I went back and read your story to get some background. I can relate to your situation, as can many others here who love their mates but cannot agree on matters of religion. I was a true believer for over 30 years and my father and mother and their parents before them. I can assure you that what you are reading about in Crisis of Conscience, and then in it's sequel In Search of Christian Freedom, really happened. You must be careful about stereo-typing Ex-JW's. There is no common characteristic or group mentality among the many thousands of people who were once active JW's but are no longer. You will get some responses (in fact you already have) that are confrontational and you will get some that are "upbuilding" and that just "look good". (Remember that thread?) If it isn't evident to you yet, it will be soon that JW's prefer the non-confrontational "feel good" "upbuilding" type of conversation. Please understand that it is only a fantasy. You have not had enough experience to know what the organization is really like. You are only at the surface where things are carefully orchestrated to evoke a positve public opinion.
You may be tempted to think I am trying to fool you and am deliberatly talking with smooth words to trick you. If you are a true believer I would not expect you to think otherwise. But from your shared experiences I don't think you are yet a true believer. You still want to think for yourself and make up your own mind. To that end I would suggest that you continue to read and think before you decide to do anything. You want to do it fast but this is so complicated that it just cannot be done fast. The only way it can be done fast is for you to make one of two decisions. Either decide to not take a chance on losing your wife and do what you are told and believe what you are told to believe, or risk losing her by declaring you are no longer a JW and will no longer be told what to believe by anyone. Both of those choices will be painful but the first one will probably be a delayed pain that you will feel much later in life.
From what I can tell from reading your comments you are not the type of person who can just go along, toe the line, and let everyone think you are a believer when you are not. If you choose that road it will likely end up making you a bitter old man. If you were that personality type it is possible to just go along and play the part of the "weak" inactive husband and have a reasonably happy marriage. But if you ever want to express yourself and have real heart to heart discussions with your friends on biblical themes or religious topics you can forget it. It's not going to happen. The only chance for you to be able to express your own opinions and ideas on matters of doctrine and biblical themes is for you to become a butt-kissing yes-man and be promoted to a position of authority in your circuit. The witnesses do not tell you this when they study with you. There is no middle ground. You must turn yourself into a true believer and fully throw yourself into the proselytizing work or get out. Anything less and you will always be considered weak and no one will discuss anything "deep" with you or give any consideration to your own ideas on subjects relating to your own faith. At best they will tolerate you and keep you at arms length. But if you get too insistant on talking with people about JW doctrine and biblical theology they will shut you up. You will either comply and clam up or be forcibly removed, through official channels.
Now, it's possible that you live in an area where there is more tolerance. But don't expect that because you love Jehovah and are convinced that he is directing your path that you will be exempt from harsh treatment. The organization is run like a machine and there is very little "convincing" or "reasoning" with your superiors. That convincing and reasoning is for non-believers only. Now that you are baptized you will be responsible to follow directions. If at any time in the future you feel like objecting to the policy of your organization you can expect to be harshly confronted. Your choices will be limited to remaining silent or changing your mind and teaching the party line. No alternatives, no compromises, are considered. If you confront your father-in-law as to whether this is true he will probaly say something like this: "you are allowed to question the Society and can even approach the GB by letter directly. There are differences of opinion among the brothers all the time and they are allowed. You should be in some of our meetings and hear how heated we get sometimes. No one is disfellowhipped for doubts or questions. This guy you are messaging with is just a disgruntled fellow who obviously didn't get the answer he wanted to hear so now he's upset with the organization. He just allowed himself to be stumbled. Don't let that slow you down. I promise you, Jehovah knows what's in the hearts of all men and will see to it that things are done right." Or, something like that. It's a sad truth that all true believers will say or do anything to protect their organization. What you have to decide is whether or not you will believe the "upbuilding" talk of your JW associates or whether you will believe the heart wrenching and often distasteful stories of those who have been where you are trying to go. Why would you want to risk your entire youth on a fantasy? You have the opportunity to direct your life in the way you want to right in front of you, right now. Unlike so many of us, you still have your youth. Many of us didn't know half of what you know about the Society until we were well beyond middle age. Believe me, it's harder to face these things when you are 50 than it is at 25.
Don't go too fast. You've got a little time to see if your wife really loves you because you are you, or because you are her faithful believing husband. Give her the benefit of the doubt and just let her work out her feelings for awhile. Maybe she will agree to look at your religion objectively and join with you in a mutual decision either for or against it. It's almost certain that at this time she is scared to death that you are falling out of the truth and that you will die soon at Armegeddon. Her chance of eternal happiness with you is clouded and uncertain. She needs to sort it out. She may decide to stick by you no matter what. But you must be ready to risk losing her if you decide to no longer be a JW. That is hard to take but that is the reality of the situation. If you feel you cannot swallow the JW doctrines and take up their cause 100% you may lose your wife anyway, depending on her own personal beliefs of what that will mean for her future. Better to find out now where she stands. But do it slowly. Read, think and keep your mouth shut for awhile. Be a good husband, a real good husband. Give her space and don't belittle her beliefs. Keep your doubts and your knowledge to yourself. Drop hints now and then to see how she responds. Try to determine if she has been working out the issues in her own mind and whether she may be ready to receive another question or two without resorting to calling you Satanic or apostate. You may want to set a certain time frame for yourself and be patient. If after attempting to win her unconditional love in your time period you feel she will never come around than it is time for more decision making on your part. Some decide to just remain the unbelieving or inactive husband. Others decide to move on and start over. That's your decision to make. Or, you may decide to forget about this decision making and thinking stuff and just go back to being a full-fledged Bible thumping JW.
Whatever you decide, I know it is not easy. It is scary and you go from confident one day to an emotional wreck and weakling the next. I feel for you. I really do. I would not wish this on anyone, having lived it myself.
Sean
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Complete reversal: from Witness to atheist
by Ephanyminitas ini'm pretty new here (five minutes old!
) and i'm curious: how many have left the organization and, in time, become athiests.
i was raised in the organization, so growing up, my thinking was -- of course -- stifled.
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SEAKEN2001
I don't think I fit any particular classification, but I am closer to athiest than I am to theist. I call myself a Christian, not because I believe the Christian doctrines taught by the theologians, but because I was raised in a Christian community and was indoctrinated according to what is commonly called "Christian". Much like a Jew who claims his Jewish heritage but is not a religious person and does not believe the Jewish theology.
In a religious sense I am probably more a Deist or Agnostic. I do not worship a God nor do I feel it necessary to have "faith" or "believe" in any doctrine or tenets. However, I do sense a spiritual nature in man and there are phenomenons that are outside of our purely fleshly experiences. I don't try to interpret the spiritual as anything more than part of the human condition. And I appreciate the various philosphies that have helped shape our collective cultures and continues to shape them. I certainly don't think Jesus was anything more than a beloved man who was interpretted by others as more than he was. I think other philosophers and teachers throughout history have been treated similarly and that it is inappropriate to assign any special honor to any of these people. But I don't find it objectionable to honor certain ideas and thoughts as beneficial for societal good, from any source. I enjoy many of the Eastern philosophies and those of Animism. I also enjoy many of the modern secular philosophies. What I find hard to swallow is the propensity in the human race to set up as gods people who happen to come up with good ideas and share those ideas with others.
Most Christians would not want to associate with me as a "brother" and will group me squarely in with you "wicked" athiests. But this whole idea of being athiest or theist or Christian or non-Christian is often seen as a religious issue. I do not see it that way. I am not a religious person but I am a spritual man and I believe in the progress and evolution of the human condition. That makes me damn hard to classify.
Sean