Posts by Seeker

536

LET'S MAKE A LITTLE WAGER

by You Know in

jw
friends

perhaps you recall the instance in the bible where samson made a wager with the philistines that they couldnt guess his riddle.

as it turned out they wheedled the answer out of him by his fiancee, but the point is that they had a wager.

since the underlying assumption of the apostasy is that we are not living in the last days of this system of things, and that this world is not facing anything remotely like the biblical apocalypse, at least not any time soon, in the spirit of such antagonism, i would like to propose a similar wager.

Seeker

You have got to be kidding me. That's hilarious. You are really desperate to discredit me aren't you? Why don't you explain how the financial system can be in a state of war. Now that should really be worth a laugh.

Especially since you were the one who wagered the financial system would be in a state of war. We've been ridiculing you about that statement ever since, you have totally ignored us every time we pointed it out, and now you pretend it is someone else who made the claim! What dishonesty!

What we are putting together here on this thread is a record of how absolutely truth-adverse and preverse apostates are.

Your record of dishonesty is impressive, all right.

I haven't backed away from anything. The financial system is in a crash-down panic mode

ROFL! It ain't easy to deny something and then confirm it in the next sentence, but you just did. Earlier in this thread you said the financial system was only in "a bit of a panic." Now you back away from that statement and create your revisionist statement that now things are in a "crash-down panic." Can't have it both ways, but you sure keep trying.

67

God's image

by Rex B13 in

jw
friends

we are made in god's image and he is a person, not just some invisible, omnipresent force.

here is some more research for those who love to ask questions yet won't do the digging.. the bible consistently portrays god as a passionate individual, whose inner experiences of love, compassion, grief, delight, joy, peace, anguish, and moral outrage at atrocity dwarf ours in the extreme.

the bible makes no apology for this, but rather exults in the living one, in contrast to the dead and lifeless idols that surrounded its writers.. one scholar put it thus:.

Seeker

Here is some more research for those who love to ask questions yet won't do the digging.

As opposed to you, Rex, someone who loves to dig for research yet won't do the thinking.

22

Victims of Groupthink

by larc in

jw
friends

groupthink,.

before i begin, i want to acknowledge two people who drew out the implications of the findings of social psychology in understanding the dynamics of the culture of the jehovah's witnesses.

jang offered some exellent information on this subject.

Seeker

sf,

I have genuine sympathy for your situation. I've always said that those who had it worst were not those who left the WTS voluntarily, but those who were thrown out and told they were wrongdoers. Especially for someone in your situation where you didn't have the Net for so many years to find out you weren't alone.

I hope you get the help you seek.

64

Bush's speech -- I'll be the first to admit...

by Seeker in

jw
friends

...it was an effective speech.

i was impressed, and thought it only fair to say so here given the recent political discussions.

Seeker

We have the first President with an MBA from Harvard. It is the first President who does have a degreee for Business. I trust God has taken a person whom may not seem eligant or educated but Jehovah can use them.

Well, I don't think God uses politicians, or even blesses one country over another, so here we will clearly never see eye to eye but will have to just respect the other person's point-of-view. As for Bush's record in school and in business, he failed to distinguish himself in either way. I'm hoping that for the first time in his life he will rise to the occasion and exceed expectations. The country deserves to have something like that happen after what we've been through.

I Live in Florida. I shook my head during the election mess. I did not see mass discrimation at the polls. Since I am Jewsih, I had a very hard time for an educated Jew to puch a ballot wrong or be confused. My family would know down to the penny on a price, tip or deal.

You and your family are not typical of all humans. We come in all sizes, shapes, and abilities. I'm glad you could handle the ballot; not everyone did, especially some of those elderly Jews For Buchanan in Palm Beach County. Doesn't matter, because the law is the law, and they should have complained sooner, but just because you weren't confused it doesn't mean others weren't. Um, what does any of this have to do with Bush's ability to lead?

We got a sample ballot in the mail, but no one complained. Plus they did a recount a few months lated after the whole thing was over, Bush still won, but very little was made about it in the Main Stream press.

On the contrary, a big deal was made about it. I read lots of stories about it.

Sorry, but Main Stream Press are Liberal biased.

Well, evidently you missed that coverage, so perhaps you are reading what you want to read and ignoring the stuff that bothers your political views? I dunno, I don't know you at all, and I don't want to cast aspersions. But I read all about the later recounts in the "liberal" press.

I know that conservatives have been trumpeting this liberal press idea for decades. There was a time when it was correct. That time is over for the most part because corporations are conservative by their very nature, and they control the news now.

My fear about Gore would have been concern to public presure of him giving in to the public for immediate military action. I admire Bush the fact we have not just gone in there and indiscrimatly take action just to appease our anger for the moment.

Ah, interesting. Yes, OK, I can see that concern. One of the big problems of the Clinton/Gore administration was their willingness to rule by poll, something that is creeping into all politics, and is a trend I hate. So I'm with you on this one.

On the other hand, since we don't even know who our target is yet fully, and Bush isn't telling anyone yet, not even our allies, it may not be as clear-cut a target as we would like, which means even a cowboy president might have been forced to wait, no matter what the public wanted.

Thanks for explaining your views in more detail.

64

Bush's speech -- I'll be the first to admit...

by Seeker in

jw
friends

...it was an effective speech.

i was impressed, and thought it only fair to say so here given the recent political discussions.

Seeker

As already discussed, the "Liberal press" is an old myth. It is now the Corporate press, and there is a difference.

It's not sound bites that make Bush sound dopey, it's his speech mannerisms. Now, if you like the guy, you make allowances for that, and I understand that. To take an extreme example, Nixon was hated by many people, but those who liked the guy would constantly apologize for him and say how misunderstood he was. Well, there are two sides to every story, that's for sure. But Nixon did do bad things, no matter how many other good things he accomplished, and Bush isn't very smart, no matter how many conservatives claim it is a liberal conspiracy. The details of this argument are found, ad infinitum, in this thread.

I am just thankful to Jehovah that Al Gore did not make it as President! Can you imagine how he would react?

Boy do I hate comments like this! Although I disliked Gore too, I have no idea how he would have reacted as president. Reagan was the cowbody president, but it was his wonk of a VP who wound up leading one of the biggest war efforts of recent years. Clinton was the draft dodger who wouldn't know what to do with an army if one was given to him. Suprise surprise, he sent the marines in time and again all over the world. So none of us would have any idea how Gore would do. He's certainly a deeper thinker than Bush, from all indications, but what difference would that make? The president doesn't decide these things unilateraly, but listens to all his advisors, the Pentagon, the FBI, the CIA, etc. Only then do decisions get made. Thankfully, in Bush's case, for he has very little experience being president so far.

So cheer on Bush if you like, and I certainly hope he does what is right, and I support him, but let's not kid ourselves as to reality. Any president could rise to the occasion, any president could fall flat on his face. We really can't tell until it actually happens, and then we just have to hold our breath and hope for the best.

36

10/1 WT: Creative days = 7,000 years

by Seeker in

jw
friends

the fourth paragraph on page 30 in the october 1, 2001 wt says this:.

"getting back to paul's statement in hebrews, we note that he pointed out that "there remains a sabbath resting for the peoples of god," and he urged his fellow christians to do their utmost "to enter into that rest.

" this shows that when paul wrote those words, "the seventh day" of god's rest, which had started some 4,000 years earlier, was still in progress.

Seeker

Moxy,

I'd be curious to hear an alternative explanation of that paragraph. I don't see how they can get around their own numbers. They not only stated when the seventh creative day began, they also stated when it will end. According to their own theology, that adds up to 7,000 years. Yes, it's implicit, not explicit, but it is there. If I were to show this to a JW, and do the math for them, what other explanation could they come up with?

35

American Witnesses face difficult time over flag

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

reports are coming from the united states that small flags and flag badges are being distributed at schools and other public places.. many are refusing to take a flag and this is causing resentment and hurt feelings.

not wishing to offend, witnesses are asking their elders what they should do.. cheers,.

ozzie.

Seeker

Give it up, Tallyman, you're not even trying here. A human can be called:

A human
An animal
A collection of atoms
Whatever else you want

But in the context you were talking (and now you'll deny that I knew what you were thinking), you sounded like you were calling them 'animals' not in the biological sense but in the social sense, as in less worthy of being called human than we in the West. That idea is wrong. They are as human as we are.

I think the only way to defeat this "enemy" we now face IS to understand them, and that they are Barbarians who want to destroy Civilization - the Law of which is Cooperation.

They don't want Western civilization, but they do want civilization. Just not a kind you are used to. You don't understand them, which means you underestimate them. Go ahead, think your barbaric thoughts all you want. Makes no difference. I made my comment because I thought you cared about accuracy.

I'm not in the mood to fight with you. Go ahead and make your comment on this response, say whatever you feel like saying. I don't care.

2

My Fear / My Prophecy

by Amazing in

jw
friends

prophecy?

more of a speculation.

fear?

Seeker

The Homeland Security office will, as government agencies always do, grow in power and scope over time. The initial focus on Arab terrorists will, inevitably, grow outward. Soon it will focus on anyone suspected of aiding terrorists, then those who knew about the plans, then those who could have known, and eventually toward average Americans who engage in "un-American" activities (such as peace protests).

As you say, we've seen it all before, and this is how the government acted during Vietnam. When you have a cabinet-level office that is assigned to keep an eye on people living in America, the inevitable abuses will follow. Just give it time.

36

10/1 WT: Creative days = 7,000 years

by Seeker in

jw
friends

the fourth paragraph on page 30 in the october 1, 2001 wt says this:.

"getting back to paul's statement in hebrews, we note that he pointed out that "there remains a sabbath resting for the peoples of god," and he urged his fellow christians to do their utmost "to enter into that rest.

" this shows that when paul wrote those words, "the seventh day" of god's rest, which had started some 4,000 years earlier, was still in progress.

Seeker

Thanks for the responses.

I should have clarified one thing: the WTS does say that Gen. 1:1 comes before the creative days, and thus it was rightly pointed out that they believe the earth itself could be millions or billions of years old. However, everything else, including geologic elements mentioned in the creative days (let alone the concept of "light"), all happened in the past 48,000 years. Including all life on earth. Such as the dinosaurs... Actually, the WTS has now just indicated a belief that dinosaurs were on the earth within the last 13,000 years (6th creative day, and all)!

Logical, the implication for 7,000 is there. If in Paul's day 4,000 years had gone by already, and we are roughly 2,000 years past that, and we include the 1,000-year reign, and JWs expect Armageddon "any day now", you are left with 7,000 total, give or take a few years.

Is it silly to talk about? Sure, but they are the ones talking about it. All those JWs who have taken courses in college on geology or biology are going to shake their heads when they read this. Or if they skip right over it, we can point it out to them and there isn't anything they can say against it. After all, it's "fresh light."

36

10/1 WT: Creative days = 7,000 years

by Seeker in

jw
friends

the fourth paragraph on page 30 in the october 1, 2001 wt says this:.

"getting back to paul's statement in hebrews, we note that he pointed out that "there remains a sabbath resting for the peoples of god," and he urged his fellow christians to do their utmost "to enter into that rest.

" this shows that when paul wrote those words, "the seventh day" of god's rest, which had started some 4,000 years earlier, was still in progress.

Seeker

The fourth paragraph on page 30 in the October 1, 2001 WT says this:

"Getting back to Paul's statement in Hebrews, we note that he pointed out that "there remains a sabbath resting for the peoples of God," and he urged his fellow Christians to do their utmost "to enter into that rest." This shows that when Paul wrote those words, "the seventh day" of God's rest, which had started some 4,000 years earlier, was still in progress. It will not end until God's purpose regarding mankind and the earth is completely fulfilled at the end of the Thousand Year Reign of Jesus Christ, who is the "Lord of the sabbath."

They have just implied, once again, that a creative day is equal in length to 7,000 years. They say the seventh creative day began 4,000 years before the 1st century. Add on two thousand years to our day, and another thousand for the Thousand Year Reign, and you get 7,000 years.

Now they have a choice:

a) Claim that creative days are of different lengths

b) Claim that the earth is only 48,000 years old (6 x 7,000 years + another 6,000 years in the seventh day).

This is a mistake. Choice a) is problematic for there is no Biblical support for this idea. And if they claim that earlier creative days are millions of years in length, they will have to explain how they know this.

Choice b) is deadly to them. All those college educated JWs who know the earth has been around far, far, far longer than 48,000 years will do a double-take when they read this paragraph. The WTS has carefull hidden this silly 7,000-year length for a creative day for the past couple of decades. Someone in Writing just let the cat out of the bag again.