Posts by Seeker4

40

THE WTS: CRASH OR SLOWLY FADE AWAY?

by Seeker4 in

jw
friends

i was just reading the thread about barbara anderson and perhaps some big news she will publish about the wts.

i agree with those who say that anything barbara has scandalous about the early history of the witnesses, ie: russel or rutherford times, will have zero impact.

that whole era is pretty much dismissed by all witnesses i know.

Seeker4

Here's the link to an earlier thread I started about the drop in the number of elders. There were some interesting comments on this one.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/127758/1.ashxz

WT Wizard mentioned the possibility that JWs might "seize control of all knowledge," with dire results. Not sure what alternate universe you live in, WTW, but this is so far from possiblity as to be laughable. There is little hope in this day of such incredible access to information of ANY organization seizing control of all knowledge, very least of all JWs. JWs are a footnote in today's culture, and they have essentially NO POWER over anything, very least of all "knowledge."

Someone mentioned the possibility of a scandal involving pedophilia by a GB member. That already happened. Leo Greenlees was dismissed from the GB, and its been common knowlege on this site, backed up by similar information I've heard seperately from a former Bethelite who is still an active JW elder, that Greenlees was dismissed for sexually abusing a young boy in a California congregation. Greenlees was not disfellowshipped, and the matter was kept completely hushed up. The average Witness has NO idea about this. I'm sure someone can find a link to those threads.

Zico wrote that the Witnesses were still seeing an increase. I think that point was well answered in the thread. Thanks. Growth is pretty much limited to third world countries and foreign language immigrant groups in the first world countries. Education and wider access to the Internet will continue to have an impact there. Growth in North America, Europe, Japan, Korea and Australia has been stagnant or declining for about a decade. I've long asserted on these boards, and I stand by it, that the WTS decline began in the mid-1990s.

Wednesday mentioned money as a factor, and that may be a huge one. I would guess that the donation system is not very lucrative. Magazines and especially books are being printed incredibly cheaply. Bethel has seen a huge downsizing over the last year or so. Very valuable waterfront properties in Brooklyn Heights are being sold for amazing sums of money, but that's only a stopgap measure. I would assume the WTS is worth billions when property is taken into consideration (at one time I think they owned over 30 buildings in the Heights area, which would be worth a fortune), but that can be used up quickly, especially if they are paying out millions to hush up these pedophilia lawsuits.

I agree with those who forsee a long, but sad decline among the Witnesses. I'm sure my ex-wife will experience that, and my JW daughter. I just am really trying to make sure they don't allow my 10-year-old granddaughter to get baptized anytime soon. I don't want to see her be a part of that decline. She's far too bright and creative.

Arthur, good points. I have to agree. My ex-father and mother in law have brought hundreds of people into the "truth," but I can assure you that they could not for one minute defend the Witness teachings before anyone with a modicum of scientific background, and certainly not against anyone with a decent knowledge of JW history. Neither could my ex-wife or my daughter. My JW son-in-law already knows it's all shit, but is so mentally unprepared for anything else he sees it as his only resource and way out. But then he's a JW alcoholic...

I remember when I was starting to see that the Witnesses were not what they claimed to be. I'd stepped down as an elder, and about a year later or so the other elders and eventually the CO began to see that I was really on my way out. I'd been one of the most studious and best prepared elders, and I wondered how well these other elders and traveling brothers would do in answering the questions that I was dealing with.

This is the absolute truth of the matter: The points the elders and COs used in answering my questions were exactly the same ones I'd used for years, and those points had really been the starting points from where I'd gone in examining the Witnesses' teachings, science, etc. They presented absolutely nothing new for me, not one new idea, not one point that I hadn't already examined and torn to shreds. They were so pathetic, there were times that I was inclined to take over their side of the discussion and at least give myself something worth arguing against.

There I was with the elite that the JWs had to offer, and it was sadly lacking. As Arthur said, the typical JW, and even the un-typical, above average JW elder, cannot begin to reason scripturally, logically, reasonably or scientifically on anything of genuine substance that questions JW teachings.

S4

16

found website that supports WTBTS..

by new_account in

i was doing an image search on google and found a link to a website that appears to fully support the watchtower org.

[ http://www.jehovah-god.org/ ] .

interesting thing to me is the pictures that it shows, some i have never seen in offical literature, yet they look like they couldve have been ones made but not used, or something i dont know.. and others that resemble images from books such as the revelation book... (the city, pearls etc).

Seeker4

I agree wiht Jgnat - the site originator is a nutter. Terrible editing job - lots of misspellings, grammar errors, etc. Then, most of the links go directly to the official JW site. Strange. Wonder how long the WTS lawyers will allow that!

That pic of Elvis Adam and his hot wife Eve is probably more from the 1950s and the Paradise Book than from the 70s, but I could be off there. At any rate, these pics go back at least one generation of JWs.

Ugh..

S4

40

THE WTS: CRASH OR SLOWLY FADE AWAY?

by Seeker4 in

jw
friends

i was just reading the thread about barbara anderson and perhaps some big news she will publish about the wts.

i agree with those who say that anything barbara has scandalous about the early history of the witnesses, ie: russel or rutherford times, will have zero impact.

that whole era is pretty much dismissed by all witnesses i know.

Seeker4

I was just reading the thread about Barbara Anderson and perhaps some BIG NEWS she will publish about the WTS. I agree with those who say that anything Barbara has scandalous about the early history of the Witnesses, ie: Russel or Rutherford times, will have ZERO impact. That whole era is pretty much dismissed by all Witnesses I know. It'll be interesting to see what she has.

So, what will happen to the WTS? Will some huge scandal bring it down, or will it slowly fade away? Certainly the latter is much more likely. My JW ex-wife is attending the funeral of an old time family friend in Maine today. He was a staunch JW elder for decades, his kids are still Witnesses, most of the grandkids. He was in his 80s, the generation that is rapidly passing off the scene. My ex's JW parents will soon follow, as will my JW Mom.

Many in my generation have left the WTS. The one thing we had were some really serious Bible students, along with even more serious Watchtower students. The ones who have stayed are tired and have lost their enthusiasm. A lot of them are pissed off with the WTS's flipflop on college, upset that they never got the education they wanted.

What I see the present JW generations lacking is any kind of serious scholarship. It's completely missing among the Governing Body or the WTS writing and service departments. The published information dropped to about a 6th grade level decades ago, and remains firmly entrenched there

Real study values are gone among the rank and file. I've been out for a decade, but I do believe that I could still kick the ass of any of the brothers in my former congregation in a biblical discussion, or discussion of WTS history and teachings. When you equate "studying" with reading and underlining a WT article or a paragraph in a book written for a 10 year old, you've got some serious research issues.

The leadership is pathetic. Poorly trained elders and apathetic flocks. I had a thread on here a while ago that it seems in the US at least that most congregations are down some 25 to 35 percent in the number of elders. We know that most of the good ones leave - a lot of them have ended up here!

No, the impact of the Internet and the huge number of active ex-Witnesses is taking a toll. It's bringing an ever increasing number out (check all the newbies we get here each week), and keeping a much, much larger number from ever joining the Witnesses to begin with. But, like all huge corporations, the WTS will more likely simply crumble slowly away. I don't ever see it making huge gains again. There's just too much negative stuff on them out there now, and too much computer access. That will only grow, and continue to impact WTS growth negatively.

Just a couple of thoughts, as I remember an old generation of friends who are dying off, having spent a life working for a myth and a publishing company. I guess in the overall scheme of things, that's probably pretty typical of most lives.

S4

125

?Please explain Evolution to me in simple terms

by Guest with Questions in

and please dont give me links to read.

i dont want a complicated version; just a very simple explanation on the theory of evolution, and if possible, in your own words.

many of us are very ignorant on this subject and it seems that a few here are very knowledgeable so i hope you can help me and others also.. also if you believe in the theory of common descent, could you explain that to me also?

Seeker4

Nice explanations from Terry, Nico, Deus and Mariusuk.

Warlock is completely ignorant of the science of evolution, and proud of it. To say that an invisible but incomprehensibly complex being of some sort is the "simplest" way to explain life on earth - well, think about that for a second.

And RAF - well, just read her stuff and compare it to people who know what they are talking about. RAF is kind of a joke when it comes to this subject. She starts from a platform of nearly complete ignorance of the subject and launches off from there. It's almost impossible to follow her "reasoning," mostly because she has none on this subject, that I've seen. Don't waste much time on her posts, but study the folks who know what they're talking about.

They give some good explanations here. We may have a right to our opinions, but that doesn't make them all equally good.

S4

16

Bethel Art Dept: Are They More Liberal/Free Thinking?

by Open mind in

i recently saw the cover of an new watchtower on "spirituality".

it was very appealing to me visually.

it's got this beautiful woman sitting next to a stream and she's wearing some flowing wrap over her clothes.

Seeker4

Here's the activated link:

http://www.freeminds.org/bethel/dave.htm

S4

20

Appealing a JC Decision

by Amber Rose in

i had my jc about a month ago now and thanks to my dad i keep thinking "shoul i have appealed?

" has anyone ever heard of a decision being reversed because of an appeal?

do very many people appeal?

Seeker4

I've chaired several appeal committees, and a few special committees.

The instructions from the WTS to appeal committees strongly indicates that they will, in the vast majority of cases, side with the original committee's decision. Also, if they feel that the original reason you were disfellowshipped was not satisfactory, BUT, in the course of the appeal meetings discover ANOTHER reason why you could be disfellowshipped, the dfing stands.

I've seen very few appeals be successful. Your father is kidding himself that it would have made much of a difference.

It's an insane, dysfunctional system which has nothing to do with any Biblical principles. In Israel, these matters were judged publicly and openly, in the city gates, and that sort of transparency in the Witness judicial system is very sorely needed.

S4

74

Demon Experiences

by gumby in

i believe that in the past i've started threads about ghosts and such but i haven't started one about me asking others if they have had a personal experience with a demon.. a couple of days ago i was talking to my dub son-in-law about how i wish i could believe in the unseen....such as ghosts, the paranormal, or anything out of the ordinary.. he said to me......"well what about demon stories"?

he related some stories that were given at an assembly from some who were greatly bothered by demons, mostly from africa.. so, what are we to make of those with such stories?

are they lying?

Seeker4

Never had any demon experiences.

Anything that remotely indicated demon activity that I dealt with as an elder was usually with people who were emotionally unstable. There were also a few incidents created by an active imagination led to believe in unseen spirits. Demons were often a convenient way to make excuses for mental illness and bad behavior.

From personal experience, as soon as you tell yourself there are no demons out there, guess what? Right! They simply disappear.

S4

35

Does Anyone Know Any of the Newer GB Members? Please share your stories.

by neverendingjourney in

jw
friends

i have read some threads here that suggest that anyone thinking big changes are coming to the watchtower due to all of the new gb appointments is fooling themselves.

its been said that ted jaracz has been heavily involved in selecting new gb members and wants to ensure that they all share his hard-line vision for the religion.

i must admit that i thought there would be big changes by now since six of the nine gb members were appointed within the last eight years.

Seeker4

Here's a thread I started a while ago on comments from a Bethelite about the new GB members:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/130704/1.ashx

Could someone activate it for me? The gist is that these guys are real company men and you'll see no innovations for the better from them. These are executives in a publishing company. Not a real Bible scholar in the bunch.

Sam Herd was one of my elder school instructors and a DO in my circuit. Seemed OK in some ways, but nothing especially noticeable about him. Down to earth is a good description - at least as down to earth as someone who's life has been taken care of by the WTS can get!

S4

16

Bethel Art Dept: Are They More Liberal/Free Thinking?

by Open mind in

i recently saw the cover of an new watchtower on "spirituality".

it was very appealing to me visually.

it's got this beautiful woman sitting next to a stream and she's wearing some flowing wrap over her clothes.

Seeker4

Here's the link. Maybe someone can activate it for me. Great piece.

http://www.freeminds.org/bethel/dave.htm

S4

16

Bethel Art Dept: Are They More Liberal/Free Thinking?

by Open mind in

i recently saw the cover of an new watchtower on "spirituality".

it was very appealing to me visually.

it's got this beautiful woman sitting next to a stream and she's wearing some flowing wrap over her clothes.

Seeker4

I know two of the Bethel artists - Eunice Spatz and Sau Ling Chain. Both have been there for decades.

All their work is approved by brothers, of course. I think there are various factions at Bethel, some more liberal than others. Not sure where the art department stands at the moment.

The brother that was the artist is a Dave that actually posts on JWD. His experience of going to Bethel to teach classes there for the the art department is posted somewhere online. I'm sure someone here can provide a link to it. It's a terrific article, and includes a lot more than the Bethel visit.

S4