Posts by Seeker4

5

Does the WTS hold to the truth in love?

by CornerStone in

jw
friends

i was reading my bible this morning,(some of us still do :) ), and i came across these verses;.

11he is the one who gave these gifts to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers.

12their responsibility is to equip gods people to do his work and build up the church, the body of christ, 13until we come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of gods son that we will be mature and full grown in the lord, measuring up to the full stature of christ.. 14then we will no longer be like children, forever changing our minds about what we believe because someone has told us something different or because someone has cleverly lied to us and made the lie sound like the truth.

Seeker4

Lisa and Ginny,

Really enjoyed your posts from Kohlberg and Piaget about development in human consciousness. In reading the works of Ken Wilber, I came to realize that one aspect of my leaving the Witnesses was that I had essentially outgrown the organization spiritually, and probably had done that years ago, but stuck with it by making the excuses many of us make (ie: "I know there are problems, but they'll eventually get straightened out in time if we wait on Jehovah," etc.).

In Wilber's spiral of human development, the Witnesses are really at one of the lower levels, on a par with other fundamentalist groups in Christianity and Isalm, or some of the fringe militia groups that we see around the US. Coming to that realization was a huge step for me in really cutting my ties with the Org. Your reference to "growing up" and moving away from mother was just dead on. I've changed my metaphor for the WTS from "mother" to seeing it as just an immature, bullying older brother who never grew up.

Thanks for the quotes.
S4

13

I Still Don't Get It

by TMS in

jw
friends

posters on several recent threads have waxed eloquent about reforming, reorganizing, reinventing, mainstreaming jehovah's witnesses.. the comparative efficacy of internal or external pressure has been one of the subthemes.. as a former 50 year "true believer", this seems like such an exercize in futility.

if this is really an organization sponsored by the god of the universe, why dare steady the ark.

if not, why bother?.

Seeker4

I think of this in two ways.

One - the WTS is essentially doomed. Eventually it will die out for lack of interest, created by all the nonsense which we are all well aware of.

But that will likely take decades, maybe most of this century, maybe longer.

IN THE MEANTIME - we all have friends, family and just in general people that we would like to help who remain JWs. Can't we make it a safer place for them to be until the inevitable occurs? THAT is my take on the work of so many here. Let's eleviate some suffering while the WTS experiences its death throes.

S4

7

photo of my stepfather

by Mulan in

jw
friends

here is a photo of my stepfather and mom, at their wedding in november 1969. mom has one of him with hayden covington and milton henschel taken forever ago, but i like this one better.

mom looks good at 57, don't you think?

henry was 54, and you can see the twinkle in his eyes.

Seeker4

Mulan,

Sorry to hear of your loss, and your mother's. But I want to say that you wrote wonderfully of him, and I'm sure he would be very pleased with what you said, and how you feel. No platitudes from me about how he is in a 'better place,' but my deepest regards for all of you. He seems not only to have touched the earth and made it more beautiful, but also to have touched people - and made them more beautiful. Like he did you.
S4

141

JW Kids Leave the Organization: Facts

by Maximus in

jw
friends

the october 1 watchtower 2001 features articles on training children "properly" and dealing with a "prodigal child.

the latest inside u.s. figures reveal that 86% of jw children leave the fold, with some 29% who eventually come back for reasons of family ties, most never "reaching out.

" that means over half leave permanently.

Seeker4

I'm very much in agreement with the last comments by Max, Joel and Met. It is the people that matter.

I was reminded by this discussion that I gave the initial talk at the DC years ago about "Are You Leading a Double Life?" Afterward one elder told me that I had been too loving in the talk, and should have taken a "harder line." Asshole - but a typical asshole.

Interesting that you speak of the dissatisfaction at Bethel, Max. I'm really out of touch lately, but that is no surprise. There are some really bright people there, who must be seeing what we are seeing.

And my take on the "double life" of Witness youths is that 90% plus must be in this category. My JW association is really limited, but the little I've seen over the past two years indicates that this problem is worse than ever.

As far as the other problems you mentioned - abuse, blood and shunning - I think we're just beginning to see these areas crumble. Silentlambs, Barbara Anderson, Dateline, lawsuits - it's coming fast and furious.

And it's about time. Thanks again.
S4

57

A Call To Deal With Apostates

by AlanF in

jw
friends

from the july 1, 2003 watchtower article "righteous requirements":.

.. the kingdom of god is the highest government anyone can serve.

how does jehovah issue the call to his people?

Seeker4

Nice work Alan. Seek out apostates and 'deal with us scripturally' eh? And I loved those verses you tossed around there - why, in JWdom, all of that would make total sense. I've heard the reasoning before.

"Sharpen the swords! Collect the stones! We gotta kill us some 'postates!"

S4

45

what job could you have had?

by sleepy in

jw
friends

hi i've just come home from cleaning windows.what an absolutely soul destroying job.. when i think of the things i could have done.. i remmember how my teachers in school used to tell me i would surely go to university and get a good job.i remmember the shock on one teachers face a few years after i left school when i told her i was a window cleaner.. i was also intrested in art and quite good at it.my grandfather who wasn't a witness offered to help me and my brother get good jobs in the art world.. we turned him down.. arrmegeddon was so soon.. anyone else like me ?.

what do you do and what could you have done?

Seeker4

Sleepy, I'm one of those long time (former) JWs who can identify with your frustration. I did cleaning for many years, including washing windows, as I raised my family, pioneered, served as an elder, etc.
Then in my early 40's I realized that the one thing I really wanted to do all my life I'd never done - which was to write for a living.

So, I committed myself to making that change, and it ended up coinciding with my leaving the Witnesses all together. For nearly two years now (after a five year effort) I've been writing full-time. This has taken a lot of sacrifice on my part (and my wife's), and the financial problems are far from over. But I am incredibly happy in what I'm doing.

But I must agree that the WTS's stand against higher education has been a real detriment to a lot of us. It is hard to not be able to apply for or be considered for positions that you know you would do well at simply because of not having a degree. This has certainly impacted our income.

Self-education is wonderful - but there are usually some gaps in there. And I think that there is also an effect on your self-confidence - it's hard to imagine yourself in certain positions when you've spent a lifetime in menial or manual work. I do agree with several posters here who have written about how satisfying physical work can be for many people, even those with considerable education. But it's not for all, and that was a mistake of the WTS - seeing a certain type of education (vocational) as the answer to everyone's needs. It isn't.

A good friend sent me this quote recently: "Your work is to discover your work, and then, with all your heart to give yourself to it." That's from the Buddha. And it makes sense.

So this has been my plan for the coming year - to focus all my resources on my writing and master it. Work at getting really, really good at it. From the technical stuff to the artistic end of it.

That is a serious challenge, but one I feel is necessary if I'm going to excell in this field the way I want to. I think an intelligent person can make huge strides in a short amount of time when they are devoted to something. A fellow writer recently gave me this metaphor, which is very helpful. She said that instead of thinking in terms of driving yourself through self-discipline to do your work, think of it as "devoting" youself to it. With our religious background, that way of thinking makes huge sense. Think of all that we've given to the WTS out of our dedication and devotion, from the heart? Why not use that same devotion now for our life's work? And I've also come to see that ANY work - even window washing - can be an expression of your spirituality. When you integrate all the parts of your life like that - the emotional, financial, intellectual, spiritual, etc. - life becomes a whole, and very, very satisfying. And from the many posts here, I think that that is what most of us are looking for, where all of our life becomes unified and we're not just working at some job so that we can enjoy a good home and our time off.

And your age will likely be a huge asset to you, and not otherwise.

As to an older person having limited opportunities due to their age, I wonder about that. In a few fields maybe, but I also see that the population is growing older, making it easier for an older person to find a niche for their skills. A lot of it is just using your imagination and creativity. Dreaming - and then working on that dream.

So, Sleepy, I wish you great success in addition to commisserating with your anger toward the WTS. Time isn't going to stop. In ten years we'll all be ten years older, and we can use that time to get our degrees, establish our new careers and lives, or stay stuck where we are. In any case, we'll all soon be ten years down the road.

And I also enjoyed the books Ginny Tosken recommended, and have them both as part of my library.
Good luck,
S4

26

From House to House, From Door to Door....

by individuals wife in

jw
friends

i was in the town this morning and saw a little cluster of jws leaving the kingdom hall, clutching their ministry bags, eager to go out into the field service.... well, maybe eager isnt quite the right word.... anyway, i thought to myself - how many people will they convert today?

one, two, a whole family?

the more obvious answer is none at all.

Seeker4

One of my pet subjects. I've felt for years that the HtoH work was not only mostly ineffective, but frequently counter productive; ie: I think far more people are turned off by it, insulted by it and made angry by it than are ever converted by it.

As all these experiences show, the majority of people who become JWs are NOT contacted in the HtoH work, but by informal witnessing to friends and family. I remember a CO asking for a show of hands in the congregation one time about how people were first contacted. It well illustrated this fact, and he was doing it to show the importance of informal witnessing.

Far from being an indication of Jehovah's direction, or even being a biblical injunction (it can be well argued that the HtoH work really has no scriptural precedent), I think this work is done simply because it's another way to be different. In some lands it can be effective still. Not here in the US or most other first world countries. Here it seems mainly an arrogant, in-your-face insult to the few people who are actually at home now.

"Let ME show you THE TRUTH, you poor ignorant soul."

S4

141

JW Kids Leave the Organization: Facts

by Maximus in

jw
friends

the october 1 watchtower 2001 features articles on training children "properly" and dealing with a "prodigal child.

the latest inside u.s. figures reveal that 86% of jw children leave the fold, with some 29% who eventually come back for reasons of family ties, most never "reaching out.

" that means over half leave permanently.

Seeker4

Tons of good stuff on this thread. Thanks again Max for starting it.

A few things it brought to mind:
As elders we used to joke back in the 80's that if you were a bad Witness kid and went to college, got a degree in law or engineering, you could go to Bethel and get a sweet job. If you were a good Witness kid and finished high school (perhaps) and then pioneered, you could go to Bethel and work in the laundry or clean toilets. And guess who your overseer would probably be? Right! The bad kid who got an education.

It was well-known from as far back as I can remember that people frequently left Bethel service and also left the Org. It was always considered one of the "danger times" along with stepping down as a servant or stopping pioneering. I remember being shocked back in the 60's to hear congregation servants say that they dreaded having an ex-Bethelite move into the cong. They often tended to be one of two things - weak, or expecting to be treated like a little god.

Joelbear: All of my experience tells me that Max's figures are accurate. You also have to remember that many of these kids that leave aren't necessarily baptized or publishers. In the congregation I attended, when I was young and in recent years, I would say that maybe a third to a half of those kids who leave never were baptized. Of my three kids, only one was baptized, and only two became publishers. My two youngest are not JWs.

There also is definitely growth among the overall JW organization - but as has been mentioned, most of that is within poor and often poorly educated populations. As access to information becomes more universal, these areas will be affected as well. A CO told me last year that the US figures would be even more dismal than they are if it weren't for the growth among immigrant Spanish and Portugeese speaking people. I also know personally several immigrants who studied with the Witnesses as a way to learn English.

Figures from the 1990 and 2000 yearbooks (which count the avg number of publishers for the year prior, not meeting attendees or inactive ones):
Total avg. pub: 1989 - 3,624,773 1999 - 5,653,987 an increase of 2,029,214. (Is that 35% or 56% growth??)

The number of US publishers in that same period increased by just under 152,000.

I loved reading about what all these other churches were doing. I thought it was great, and reminded my that the night my wife loves to attend the book study is the night when everyone brings snacks. To Bethel: IT'S THE ASSOCIATION, GUYS, NOT ALL THAT GREAT INFO ABOUT WHAT ISAIAH'S PROPHECIES MEAN!!!!!!

When you think about it, there have been such minor meeting changes over the past half century or more. Slight variations in the timing, etc., but that's it. I was thinking how there was supposed to be this big announcement this year at the DC abut adjustments in the meetings, and it turned out to be a disappointingly small adjustment in the TMS, according to my family who attended. Dull, boring, routine.

My take on all of this is that the WTS reached it's peak in the mid-1990's, and with slight yearly variations will continue to show a leveling off and eventual decline. My guess - no WTS in 2100.

About the lack of education and the narrow thinking among GB members, I competely agree. The sad thing I remember about so many in authority among the Witnesses was they were so narrowminded, so proud of it, and so totally confident that their narrow view was completely accurate. How often I heard year's of research, or a recognized authority dismissed by some elder with an eighth grade education and a Watchtower quote. In how many organizations do you have bragging rights on how LITTLE you've read or studied?

Great thread,
S4

141

JW Kids Leave the Organization: Facts

by Maximus in

jw
friends

the october 1 watchtower 2001 features articles on training children "properly" and dealing with a "prodigal child.

the latest inside u.s. figures reveal that 86% of jw children leave the fold, with some 29% who eventually come back for reasons of family ties, most never "reaching out.

" that means over half leave permanently.

Seeker4

Max,

Oops! Of course. One out of eight STAYS was what I meant. Sorry.

S4

141

JW Kids Leave the Organization: Facts

by Maximus in

jw
friends

the october 1 watchtower 2001 features articles on training children "properly" and dealing with a "prodigal child.

the latest inside u.s. figures reveal that 86% of jw children leave the fold, with some 29% who eventually come back for reasons of family ties, most never "reaching out.

" that means over half leave permanently.

Seeker4

Maximus, well written and well thought out, as always.

In the 1980's, a CO visiting our congregation gave the figure that one out of eight kids leaves the Witnesses. He didn't say where he got them, but that figures out to about 88% leave - VERY nearly your figure.

What we found that was interesting, was that my wife and I were talking about that afterward, and remembered the congregations we grew up in in the 1960's. And damned if it didn't come out to exactly one out of eight kids that we grew up with stayed with the Org.

So I would say that your experience of half a century is similar to my somewhat shorter one - the vast majority of kids leave the Witnesses. I'm reminded what an elder in a local, reclusive cult in my home area told me. I asked him about how many of the young people raised in the group stay with it. He told me that his group would consider it the worst kind of failure if many of the children left. His point was that if the children raised in the group struggled to see it as having a superior way of life and being the truth, what chance was there that outsiders could be convinced?

It was a point well taken.

There is an insanity to the WTS, as you said. Doing the same things over and over, and expecting different results. More study, prayer, meeting attendance and family study didn't make a difference in the 60's, the 80's or the 90's. And they certainly won't in this new century. The WTS is doomed.

Always great to read your stuff.
S4