Posts by Carmichael

193

My Prediction: Trump Wins Big

by minimus in

jw
friends

a month ago it might have been questionable.

not now.

after bader’s death and biden’s inability, this shouldn’t be close.

Carmichael

Like Jehovah’s Witnesses, when we decided that something wasn’t right we researched. We didn’t take for granted what we were told.

But like Jehovah's Witnesses, cults are filled with people who admire personalities. All I hear on this thread is stuff like...

Watchtower forbids its members from looking at outside resources on pain of separation from friends and family. Trump, for all his faults, does no such thing to the American public.

Trump has indeed been physically separating families, first at the American/Mexican borders. This was far more violent and at higher numbers than the Governing Body ever did to us. But it is easy "newsspeaked" away by those, who like others in cults, admire Trump to the point at acting with the same type of confirmation bias, anger, hate, and engaging in the same type of debate people in religion cults do.

Religious cults may have a list of approved materials, but cult members aren't forced at gunpoint to these lists. They do so by choice. They believe they have chosen the right side, so the close themselves off to all other input because they think only their leadership is holy. We who were once JWs remember how we used to do this because we thought we were once so smart for making this choice.

One is only see something when they take in information from both sides at once, not just from one source, remember? This is true from politics. Both sides throw mud. The mud just doesn't throw itself.

If people here are admiring once political person over another, it's because they drink their brand Kool-Aid, nothing more. Don't be fooled, no matter what they tell you.

Besides, truth be told. If the current POTUS was so great, no politcal party could have stopped him from building his wall, stopping unrest, and putting in a successful plan to run the country in the face of a pandemic and bring it to an end. Real leaders have the power to vanquish enimies. They don't complain about them.

One last thing: it has not been proven that previous cult members can't be seduced again.

41

Is There a Higher Conscious

by LetTheTruthBeKnown in

most of the individuals here from what i have read have gravitated to believing in evolution for various reasons and no longer have a belief in a creator.. the questions begs though, is there a higher conscious in the universe than mankind's.

i am sure everyone agrees that animals are conscious, but to what extent can they reason?.

here is the link to dr. rupert sheldrake's - is the sun conscious.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfhsobpja8a.

Carmichael

If there was, to what extent would it matter to you?

What type of evidence would you need from this "consciousness" in order to answer your question?

Does this "conscious" being owe you a revelation?

Could you understand it if it offered it to you?

If you didn't like what it offered to you, then what?

What if you didn't like the Higher Consciousness? What if it didn't like you?

What if the Higher Consciousness is the God of the Jews or some other religion that spoke another language that you had to learn to understand, but could be understood if only you would take the time to learn that language?

What if there had been a Higher Consciousness, but you got to it too late to take advantage of it?

47

Why Do Intelligent People Still Believe In The Jehovah’s Witness Religion?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i understand it’s a cult.

but what makes an intelligent person actually believe they have the “truth” as taught by jehovah’s witnesses??

?.

Carmichael

If a person decides not to join the JW religion, does it mean he is intelligent?

That's the point I've been making all along, Drearyweather.

One can find an answer, often by simply turning a question on its head. There are stupid people who are atheists--I know.

I dated a guy who was an idiot, and he didn't believe in God. Neither did a single member in his family. All of them college grads. But the son, turns out, not so smart--or honest or good, either. And he made an active decision not to be a JW or to believe in any type of God too.

Choosing to become a JW doesn't not make one instantly stupid, nor does deciding to avoid them guarantee intelligence.

Personal values, which religion is, is emotion. Intelligence plays little part in these type of choices.

Part of the reason some on this site may find this hard to swallow is that the Watchtower taught us that choosing religion was an intellectual choice, and that we were "intelligent" for seeing the "facts" and "choosing the Truth" and "reject false religion." Intelligence played no part. The Governing Body was merely toying with us.

In reality--and this may be hard for some of us to swallow--we were just being emotional about what we believed in. We may have used our smarts to get out (hopefully), but there again, we didn't instantly become college grads upon coming out of a cult.

And we left a cult, too. We might like to think that we left a religion behind, because it's easier to swallow. But we didn't leave a religion or religion in general behind. We left a cult.

Especially if we were raised in the JWs, we don't know what it is like to be in a religion and to have religious beliefs and to adopt or reject them. We know only how to be in a cult and to leave one, and that's very different. We may hate all religion (and that's our right), perhaps mainly because JWs taught us to do that, but we may have never been in a religion, just a cult.

39

What’s up with the modern Nation of Israel?

by DATA-DOG in

being raised a dub i never voted.

i’m not a republican or a democrat, not a liberal or a conservative.. i’m pretty middle of the road.

i want everyone to have a fair shake if possible in this life, but i definitely don’t believe in forced equality, that’s just not possible.

Carmichael

minimus:

There is no chosen people.

This is basically the view of all Jews, religious and secular, outside of the Orthodox religion.

The Conservative, Reform and Reconstructive Jewish denominations all acknowledge that the idea that the Jews are "chosen" is merely an ancient view that most ancient cultures held regarding their place with their own deities. There were no flags, no national anthems, just deities and religion to show national patriotism in those days in the various cultures regardless if you were Jewish, Greek, Roman, whatever.

Modern Jews embrace critical scholarship regarding their religion (Conservation, Reform, Reconstructionist, Humanist), but the Orthodox generally reject it with great distrust, even hatred. This is why the critical view that Jews are actually chosen or special among nations is no longer taught in non-Orthodox Jewish religions. This may also explain why the Orthodox don't allow other Jews into Israel. ("If you don't believe we are special, you don't belong on our land!")

Critical-thinking religious Jews tend to view God less as a Person and more as ineffable. It is not uncommon for rabbis from all four of the more liberal Jewish religions to have this transcendent view, with God being less the "being that hears and answers prayers, rewarding good and punishing evil," and more the concept of Good and Power among the Jews.

Fanatics are the problem, unfortunately. Critical thinking tends to allow for the welcoming of women as rabbis, LGBT Jews, atheists, and agnostics to create and find their own ways among the Jewish people that are just as valid--and these things "just aren't allowed" with the Orthodox.

Unfortunately, as you've mentioned, too many people see only the fanatical behavior, blame it on all the Jews (Orthodox are the minority) and the anti-Semitic behavior gets directed at a Jewish majority that doesn't fit the "excuses" for the hatred.

39

What’s up with the modern Nation of Israel?

by DATA-DOG in

being raised a dub i never voted.

i’m not a republican or a democrat, not a liberal or a conservative.. i’m pretty middle of the road.

i want everyone to have a fair shake if possible in this life, but i definitely don’t believe in forced equality, that’s just not possible.

Carmichael

My racial background is Jewish (or Hebrew, if you prefer--I'm always fascinated how non-Jews are always up-in-arms on wanting to tell me what label to wear...amyway).

The modern republic or nation of Israel was never meant to be religious. It was meant to be secular--and at least on paper, it is. Following the model of the United States (and since there were various forms of Judaism), Israel promised freedom of religion.

But that flew out the window with the fanaticism that followed the Six-Day War of 1967.

For those who are unfamiliar with it, the Six-Day War was a June war in 1967 in which Israel fought against Egypt, Syria, and Jordan that ended with Israel gaining control of the territory that had religious significance for the Jews, namely the Temple mound, along with the Western Wall. The war didn't start out with that in mind (it began with Syrian and Egyptian military forcing UN Emergency Forces from the Sinai Peninsula). But today the story seems to be told in the Israeli mind as if the original goal was to regain the religious territories by the Israeli armies.

There is a difference between Israeli and Jewish too. Israeli refers to those who live in and have official citizenship in the modern country of Israel. Jewish refers to the entire civilization of peoples who are Hebrew, whether or not they officially belong to a Jewish denomination--this also includes Israelis.

After the Six-Day War, the religious clergy in Israel began to attribute the winning of the war to the fulfillment of prophecy. They gained greater and greater control in the country until only the Orthodox Jewish religion and their clergy became the religious voice in politics. With money and power, the Orthodox began to influence the government by getting their people elected.

Eventually, the Orthodox destroyed most other forms of Jewish religious belief in Israel (though they still exist, but in very small amounts). They did this with the help of the government political machine in Israel to the point that the generation following the Six-Day War now identifies itself in either one of two ways: religious or secular. The word "Orthodox" no longer needs to be used.

In the United States, Protestants (and even Catholics to a smaller amount) began to view this recapturing of the Western Wall and the Mound as a sign that God was indeed still with the Jews. This began the development of new theology, especially in Evangelical circles.

With the rise of the Religious Right in the 1980s, many political figures adopted this view and began to align with Israel's now religious-backed government. To the Religious Right, who believed that God had to restore the Kingdom to Israel before the Return of Christ, to vote against Israel politically was to "vote against God," you found American political figures aligning themselves with Israel for the most part.

But for the most part, in America and increasingly with the secular Israelis, Jews don't like how Isreal has been run since the Six-Day War. For instance, Jews can no longer make Israel their homeland unless they convert to Orthodox Judaism. That is currently law.

Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu is considered guilty of corruption, but he is backed by the Orthodox-run religious government in Israel. The religious Christian political force in American politics won't back down from supporting him because their churches keep teaching such odd teachings about Israel. In the meantime, many Jews still can't make Israel their homeland because they refuse to become Orthodox or even religious (many Jews are agnostic, atheist, or at least non-practicing or even of another faith),

It's a mess, but there you have it.

47

Why Do Intelligent People Still Believe In The Jehovah’s Witness Religion?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i understand it’s a cult.

but what makes an intelligent person actually believe they have the “truth” as taught by jehovah’s witnesses??

?.

Carmichael

Minimus:

That's a good question. I don't know. As a woman, I never had the "privilege" of being an elder. I was a regular pioneer once and had many privileges and was looked up to in the congregation, but I still left when I suddenly woke up and realized that it wasn't the true religion it claimed to be.

As far as opinions go, I can only guess that some people might stay in it for the power and privilege, but from what I experienced, that isn't really worth it. Unless you are the top dog in that organization, there is always another dog taking a piss on you from above, and, as you know, it isn't pleasant. So no one truly enjoys the ride as elders in the Org.

How about the Governing Body? My guess is that they are really, truly duped. They have great power and wield great power, and in their instance that great power has them drunk believing that God must have given it to them--how else would they have become members of the Governing Body? Thus they believe in the fairy tale. (No dog to piss on them as they are all top dogs. So pleasant the feeling that the high makes them believe Jehovah must be in charge of their lives--blessing them especially.)

It is sort of how the kings and queens in the past believed in the divine right of kings. The Governing Body members believe the religion is true because their positions of authority have been "bestowed" upon them by Jehovah, or so they believe. This "legitimacy" is the root of their belief system, what they believe about themselves and how they see the universe. They have bought into it completely. They thus truly believe they are subject to no earthly authority (and thus can do things like protect child molesters in their ranks or avert from paying taxes, etc.). But challenge them and in those heels go into the dirt of denial....

People can be hypnotized by those who believe they are instruments of the gods. My secret hope is that the Armageddon or Return of Christ they preach does come to face them in some way and that during it they find out how wrong they were:

On the Judgment Day, many people will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name and expel demons in your name and do lots of miracles in your name?’ Then I’ll tell them, ‘I’ve never known you. Get away from me, you people who do wrong.’--Matthew 7:22-23, Common English Bible.

47

Why Do Intelligent People Still Believe In The Jehovah’s Witness Religion?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i understand it’s a cult.

but what makes an intelligent person actually believe they have the “truth” as taught by jehovah’s witnesses??

?.

Carmichael

LongHairGirl:

The problem is that people did not think they were joining a cult when they got involved with the JWs...
I was young and made a wrong detour. I didn’t fit in because (thankfully in retrospect) I would not make the stupid concession that I quit a decent job to pioneer..I lingered a little longer than I should have but at least I got the hell Out.

True, a lot of us didn't know what we were in for when we joined. If the Witnesses were honest and upfront, even with their children, with born-ins, who would get baptized as one?

But the point of this thread is why do intelligent, thinking people choose to keep the faith of the Jehovah's Witnesses?

As the two articles I highlighted at the beginning point out (Why Facts Don't Change Our Minds & Why People Ignore Facts), people don't keep their belief system--especially under challenges--because they are logical ways of thinking. No, we keep our belief system because they make us feel safe. No.

Then why do they do this? Because they are all we have. Even when you leave the Witnesses, you develop a new belief system, even if you become agnostic or atheist. Your belief system is your new identity. If someone challenges your new belief system, you will act just the same way you did when you were a Jehovah's Witness: unreasonable, blind to facts, and leaning to confirmation bias. Why?

Because intelligence has nothing to do with the exercise of belief systems, per se. Intelligent people might have more critically designed belief systems, but how they are exercised comes under the realm of emotion, not intellect.

This is not a bad thing. In fact, it's an important thing. It's psychological survival. We are what our psyche believes we are. And what we are, what our psyche believes is based on what we believe about the universe.

So that stubborn response by Jehovah's Witnesses who refuse to believe facts is not always a sign that they lack intelligence. It is more often than not a normal survival response, self-psychological preservation. True, Witnesses believe in some pretty screwed-up doctrine. But a nominal Jew or intellectual atheist or average Protestant will act exactly the same when their belief system is threatened because we are what we believe.

It's emotion, not intelligence.

47

Why Do Intelligent People Still Believe In The Jehovah’s Witness Religion?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i understand it’s a cult.

but what makes an intelligent person actually believe they have the “truth” as taught by jehovah’s witnesses??

?.

Carmichael

Another way to look at this...

We are not automatically intelligent or brighter thinkers because we woke up and left the Jehovah's Witnesses behind.

Leaving a cult behind does not automatically make one intelligent. I've seen some people act illogical after leaving the cult of the Watchtower--and I don't mean by joining another religion (they became atheists). Intelligence is not necessarily measured by what religious or non-religious views a person might subscribe to. If you were an idiot as a Jehovah's Witness, leaving the group won't guarantee any raise in IQ.

If we are talking about common sense and smarts, people shouldn't listen to any of us when it comes to religion if we freely joined a cult and later left. I mean, we may have the left the cult, but we joined it, to begin with. I wouldn't recommend people who chose cults as experts on religion to anyone--myself included.

Flipping the argument back to the way it was originally written--there isn't IQ involved. Religion is mostly emotional. A lot of people don't want to believe that. Some who leave cults want to believe that leaving a cult made them intelligent or is proof that they are more intelligent somehow than others that are left in the cult. That's not true.

Like those in cults, you won't convince people who now believe that intelligence is the earmark of Watchtower exiting. But the phenomenon of "waking up" is multi-faceted and is not limited to logic or intelligence.

47

Why Do Intelligent People Still Believe In The Jehovah’s Witness Religion?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i understand it’s a cult.

but what makes an intelligent person actually believe they have the “truth” as taught by jehovah’s witnesses??

?.

Carmichael

Cognitive dissonance is the state of having or being presented with inconsistent and/or contradictory thoughts, beliefs, ideals, and values.

It can occur when someone comes to the conclusion that the facts about themselves and their beliefs and lives do not match up with their preconceived ideas. The dissonance can be momentary or constant for a significant, but limited time and the subject deals with it in one of either two ways: either they accept the facts that their preconceived ideas were wrong and now act on the facts as they are or they fight off the facts by digging themselves deeper into their falsehoods.

The fictional character Harry Potter is a good example of someone who, in each book, comes face-to-face with a moment of cognitive dissonance--realizing that everything he believed in the story up to a certain point was false--and acting on the newly-learned facts to change himself and the current situation.

Harry Potter is fictional. Most people cannot and will not change so quickly. People hate to be told they are wrong and change often takes time, years often, before we change ourselves and situation, not moments like Harry. Just think of how long most of us took to leave the Witnesses behind.

47

Why Do Intelligent People Still Believe In The Jehovah’s Witness Religion?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i understand it’s a cult.

but what makes an intelligent person actually believe they have the “truth” as taught by jehovah’s witnesses??

?.

Carmichael

Two news articles come to mind: Why Facts Don't Change our Minds from "The New Yorker" and Why People Ignore Facts from "Psychology Today."

The general answer is a little more disturbing than we might want to admit. Basically our identity or self is composed of a belief system. In order to survive with appropriate self-esteem, we must protect this identity. Composed of beliefs, our self is not necessarily built upon an accurate understanding of our true place in the universe and what we actually are.

Should we be confronted with facts that disturb this sense of self--and we are the type of person who is not welcome to change or ready to agree that we might be wrong about ourselves and perhaps even everything we know--in order to preserve our sense of self, we dig in deep into the belief system that built ourselves and choose to embrace falsehoods and fiction instead of fact.

Confirmation bias is one way people preserve this state of false self. Another is to become an expert and more zealous promoter of our false doctrine. Doing this allows the false teachings that make up the false state of mind to act as a blocker against thinking about doubts that cause cognitive dissonance.

Religious cults and politics, as the article in Psychology Today demonstrates, have a lot in common. People may wonder how "intelligent" people get involved in religious cults, yet on a regular basis, people get involved in the same type of thinking patterns, ignoring of facts, and mental sweeping of erroneous claims "under the rug" using the same techniques that keep smart people in false religions.

People let this type of mental influence happen to them in various parts of their lives (commercial, medical, exercise, entertainment, fashion, etc.). The fact is that we are too ready to be sheep, too often begging to be lead astray without even knowing it.