Posts by ShotWhileTryingToEscape

46

Sound Familiar?

by peacefulpete in

a republican congressman voted his conscience to impeach trump.

the results might surprise some of us.. "my dad's cousins sent me a petition - a certified letter - saying they disowned me because i'm in 'the devil's army' now," kinzinger said in a phone conversation on thursday.

"it's been crazy, when you have friends - that you thought were good friends that would love you no matter what - that don't.".

ShotWhileTryingToEscape

I’ll just put this out there. Short and concise : the divide is foundational. It’s fundamental. We have grave differences on how to organize society. It has little to do with religion, nothing to do with Trump. It has nothing to do with racism, although you wouldn’t know that listening to the news.

It’s the foundation principles that have defined western civilization, the ones that make capitalism even remotely possible. We are at that level.

There isn’t a middle ground as far as I can see.—-MMM

MMM, you say we have grave differences about how to organize society. And you seem to suggest that there are destructive threats rising from these differences. Threats to the very the western principles upon which we have built our lives and our economic ( capitalistic) system.

If we accept this assessment the problem then a question comes to mind: When the Constitution was framed on Western values did it really provide a sound framework for social order? Or did it create a time bomb by failing to recognize the equal value of all citizen to have a share of, a voice in society.

The answer is historical: Native Americans, women, white men without property, and chattel slaves were bound to a social order that legally excluded them from enjoying the fruits of Western Values.

So while there is every reason to love the “new nation conceived in liberty” the Founding Fathers limited who they wanted to share those freedoms: Native Americans, women, white men without property, and chattel slaves were bound to a social order that legally excluded them from enjoying the fruits of Western Values.

*******************************************************

Pertinent to the birth of our nation- I think River Gang’s observation on the ways in which a marriage might fail speaks to this matter.

I regret to have to say the I have been through a divorce.

No single event caused that, just several decades worth of resentment which accumulated finally to explosion point.

(Back then, I had never even heard of “conflict management”)

Also RG wrote:

As in many things, timing is all important in conflict management. If allowed to fester for too long without being effectively managed, then the consequences are likely to be drastic (eg. War)

22

What do you see?

by Simon in

jw
friends

do you see a man with a backpack running into the woods?.

do you see a dog running out of the woods?.

i saw the man running first .... .

ShotWhileTryingToEscape

Power of suggestion?

I also saw the man first, then he dog.

This reminds me of a post recently about a comedian first gave you some hilarious & bogus words to popular songs—then he played that song— and you heard exactly what he told you!

31

If only someone had kicked my a$$.. (This is post is not for theists)

by HowTheBibleWasCreated in

i think back on the 30+ years of bs as well as my fading almost a decade and even now being low key in person to hopefully save my nieces from the wt.

i'm a wreck in some ways.

i'm other days i'm stable however when it comes to theism i depart quickly and with anger!

ShotWhileTryingToEscape

Hey, Disillusioned,

I appreciate that your posts nail down those elusive flashes of doubt or uneasiness that hold us open to later thought to build on.

I like to listen to Mormon Stories on YouTube while l work. I am heartened by these people delineating their own dawning realization of belief in a damaging and dishonest religious organization. These interviews by John Delin (sp?) have helped me feel at peace with my own inability to see any sooner than l did.

P.S.Here’s something along the lines of the OP that I just remembered.

Have a laugh.

https://youtu.be/SAIEIJHNFx4

46

Sound Familiar?

by peacefulpete in

a republican congressman voted his conscience to impeach trump.

the results might surprise some of us.. "my dad's cousins sent me a petition - a certified letter - saying they disowned me because i'm in 'the devil's army' now," kinzinger said in a phone conversation on thursday.

"it's been crazy, when you have friends - that you thought were good friends that would love you no matter what - that don't.".

ShotWhileTryingToEscape

(Between work and my phone dumping my comments before l get them posted—argh! —Try again)

Right— money is a tool humans invented for trade. First coins possessed value according to the kind of metal and it’s weight. Very handy tool. Say I want my nrighbor’s donkey so l offer him to swap fir one of my hogs. He has a hog already. So I sell my hog to a local market for some coins and buy my neighbor’s donkey. Wonderful invention. But the power of money quickly outgrew such mundane use.

No point in going into the history of money. But I want it understood that I agree that money isn’t evil in itself.

What is very like evil comes into play is when vast sums of wealth are held by only a few humans.

Increasingly we are not able to access the means to support ourselves through direct efforts i.e. on pawpaw’s back forty building a cabin, digging a well. and gardening. So we work for money to buy our living indirectly.

That is modern life. And many people have found it possible to flourish in the use of money by reinvesting their hard won surpluses into interprises that generate more money. If they do this frequently and successfully they will become wealthy . And one of the good things about this model of gaining more wealth and investing it is the likelihood that others will think of cool ideas and products to sell for money. And things go on getting better for everyone. Not bad. Certainly not evil.

But enter the nature change when a wealthy person becomes a disembodied Corporation. Then comes hazard .

_____________________________________________

In 1898 Warren Bechtel from Peabody Kansas went into business with two mules and a wagon. Eight years later he bought a steam shovel and painted the words “W. Bechtel Inc.” on one side ((though he wasn’t incorporated for another 8 years) Five generations later Bechtel Corporation is the largest construction firm in the U.S. I like that story of a salt-of-the-earth type guy getting ahead like that.

But twenty years ago Bechtel Corp was involved in the kind abuse of power— legally—that can only occur when the basic structures of human commerce, finance , politics and human interactions are so out of balance as they now are.

When Bechtel Corporation and a few other parties took on the private management of water in Cochabamba, Bolivia the city’s poor (who subsisted on @ $100 a month) were informed that water would cost them $20 a month. So they return to using rainwater from cisterns instead . The Newly incorporated water authority told them they were in violation of the law.

You can find out what happened by googling “ The Cochabamba Water War”

I like to think that Warren Bechtel in his mule days would never have done that. But a hundred years later his good human heart didn’t thump in Bechtel’s Corporation even if his blood flows in the veins of its CEO. The corporate nature/structure can’t allow it.

The scale of big money is literally heartbreaking.

( sorry for typos- I gotta post this now)

edit:thedivision there and here and everywhere has to do with thorny matters rising from social inequities and how they become interpreted and politicized . Without compassionate listening to all the parties those in comfortable circumstances will feel threatened,feel demonized by the working poor.

The middle class will feel resentful in their own struggles.

And the poor — well, are they always with us? Never a serious voting block and easy to ignore—until you take even the rainwater away from them.

13

Donald John Trump incited ...

by MeanMrMustard in

https://youtu.be/jdy7yvyzmxw.

ShotWhileTryingToEscape

mickbobcat- this time they’re impeaching Trump for indecent exposure.

28

GameStop - Great Seeing Short-Selling Hedge Funds Get Beaten Up

by Simon in

in case you haven't seen what's happened with gamestop and redditors.. these are the people who drive companies like blockbuster out of business and put people out of work.. but maybe the people have more power after all .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9toogruq7me.

ShotWhileTryingToEscape

The recent and most thorough studies of The more "poorer" buyers are just trying to get into a home to live in, one in a market they are competing against with the wealthier "flippers" who play the system rather than live in it.—-Brock Talon

I heard an economist make an observation like yours.

Markets played for no other reason than to make money will inevitably destroy struggling people and businesses. He indicated it will break the country unless there come a change to the ways money is gamed .

24

Have JEHOVAH ever supported WARS between his WORSHIPPERS?

by Longlivetherenegades in

jehovah's witnesses used to state other christian denominations go to war and in fact that their religious leaders bless such wars.

they see this as one reason why all other christian denominations are not true christians since they kill one another at war and therefore they don't love one another as stated by jesus in john 13: 34,35.. for example when a roman catholic go to war, he/she is bound to kill a fellow roman catholic in the cause of the war.

therefore roman catholic can't be true christians since its member don't love one another and kill one another at war and as such god cannot be in support of such wars where his worshippers kill one another.. the question that comes for consideration is, has jehovah ever supported wars between his own worshippers?.

ShotWhileTryingToEscape

Our own moral outrage blinds us to the obvious reality that women were relatively worthless during this time. The concubine’s torture and death did not trigger the bloodbath that led to more atrocities. It was the besmirched honor of a Levite man that mattered.

The parts of the concubine were sent around , Israel gathered and they asked” what exactly happened ?” And the the Levite said “ These men wanted to kill me. “

Then he adds” So they raped my concubine to death.” ( But he never says outright that he shoved her into their arms)

The rape and murder of a woman was a property issue( check out the Law of Moses). But the rape and murder of a man was a capital offense.

This Bible story reflects a God of disorder and brutality . Even if Jehovah did not support the war he is still guilty. As others already have said: if God just let it roll then he is as blood guilty as the worst in Israel.

46

Sound Familiar?

by peacefulpete in

a republican congressman voted his conscience to impeach trump.

the results might surprise some of us.. "my dad's cousins sent me a petition - a certified letter - saying they disowned me because i'm in 'the devil's army' now," kinzinger said in a phone conversation on thursday.

"it's been crazy, when you have friends - that you thought were good friends that would love you no matter what - that don't.".

ShotWhileTryingToEscape

I don’t really think it has anything to do with Trump or Biden personally. And I don’t think it’s superficial at all.—MMM

I too think the problem it is very deep and pernicious.

Holy men started warning about its dangers almost as soon is showed up:” watch out for money “ they said. “loving it is the root of all kinds of evil.”

And they were right.

Money was a human creation, Like a lot of things that seem cool at first you discover that it brings unlooked for troubles with it.

What had never been there from the beginning of time soon became more important than possessing a good name. If a person didn’t have a certain amount of money then bad things were bound to happen to them.

Money made long distance influence possible. Humans soon lost their natural animal birthright to live and sustain themselves on the earth where they first found themselves. Instead of the dignity of being a respectable human you were styled a squatter. Money paid surveyors. The land was sold and money wrote laws and secured land ownership .

Money paid armies of conquest.

Banks were built.

Humans even played money games at places like Wall Street where their games made rich people suddenly very much richer or sometimes very much poorer.

Being rich made others listen because it gave power ,

Money was like magic and more important than anything else in the world. Even God wanted it. All the ways that people used to live on the earth before money came was now changing .

Elders, statesmen, councilmen, senators etc —public servants who were chosen to help fellow humans lead orderly, happy and healthy lives—these became influenced by the power of money.

Money eventually moved into the lives of humans so much that it took over everything. The rich could use money for laws that made money grow faster for thrm than for poor people.....Money has been the cause of wars too. Wars fought FOR the rich were fought BY the poor.

.So here we are., Anxious in a world turn upside down by a thing we made but don’t seem able to stop.

Money had taken over our lives. Even if you HATE moneyou can’t escape it.

People expect government to help when money systems get jammed up Legislators in our government help make laws and decide how to spend our money to make our lives better. But they are scared too, now they are ugly to one another. They don’t work together.

Human inventiveness coupled with the intoxicating greed built a vastly different world so fast and trash laden that it is weighing us down.. And yet we still have money worries.

We needed to be building compassion in ourself to combat the urge we have now to fight one another. But we didn’t

So we blame the one another for what? Being as confused as you are? Believing this solution instead of that one?

Out of control world + low compassion= Divided.

Ps. Another reason we are divided? Humans are nuts. Only a human would have written that post. —SWTTE

46

Sound Familiar?

by peacefulpete in

a republican congressman voted his conscience to impeach trump.

the results might surprise some of us.. "my dad's cousins sent me a petition - a certified letter - saying they disowned me because i'm in 'the devil's army' now," kinzinger said in a phone conversation on thursday.

"it's been crazy, when you have friends - that you thought were good friends that would love you no matter what - that don't.".

ShotWhileTryingToEscape

People have to belong to teams. —wozza

I agree with you most strongly. Though you said “a lot of things contribute to change”, wozza, the pressure to “join up” is really powerful. Especially when there is a dominant person or persons can make or break you and your family. Then we feel we must choose their side whether or not we agree with the values and concerns they hold. Soon so many of your family, neighbors and friends jump on the team no one can tell who is “all in” . Everyone ? Or are done holding back— like you.

(We should understand how subversive this forced can be; in JW land the need to conform made it hard to live with a marriage partner if we held non-conformist views — would they leave us? “out” us to the other team members?)

Yea, People feel like they have to belong to teams .

But about The U.S, being different? I disagree. For Covid I have been reading books and scholars papers to understand the mindset of soldiers and civilians North and South before during and after our American Civil War.

I was surprised to find the people back then no different in their general attitudes similar to everything I see and hear of my neighbors and friends now! Even the pressure to join something you did not support ( on both sides!) was there . There was anti- immigrant rhetoric, racism, charges of election fraud over the election of the “Rail Splitter” in the White House, and do on—even Fake News shows up as a complain early in the War. And the inflamed passions ! No wonder there was a war.

Why is there such a political divide though? That is still the question to answer.

If I try to respond to Mean Mr, Mustards Mustard’s question I will have to say it later because it was way late when I saw these posts snd l have to get some slerep.💤🌙

31

If only someone had kicked my a$$.. (This is post is not for theists)

by HowTheBibleWasCreated in

i think back on the 30+ years of bs as well as my fading almost a decade and even now being low key in person to hopefully save my nieces from the wt.

i'm a wreck in some ways.

i'm other days i'm stable however when it comes to theism i depart quickly and with anger!

ShotWhileTryingToEscape

Disillusioned JW,

You say information from people helped you leave the JWs . But it was information after initial doubts had come to you, doubts unprompted by ass-kickers.

To quote you: At times in my life, tactful direct argumentation with clear evidence from books would have helped me discover the truth much sooner than I did.”

The relevant phrase being “ At Times in my life”

And later “The ex-JWs from a distance told the JWs they don't need to talk to them (where other JWs could see them and thus get them in trouble for talking to 'apostates'), but instead that after they get home they can secretly look up the claims for themselves in the WT's literature, with the aid of the internet.”

It sounds like you kicked your own ass/made the-truth-about-the -Truth-your-own. Not to say others did not provide any information (And good for them that they went to the trouble to make it available !) But your story suggests that you were not force fed. You already were pretty hungry when facts presented themselves.

The protesters outside of the convention didn’t crowd up on you either. They recognized JWs need privacy if they might ever explore“apostate “ info. In fact I was totally “out” before I would talk about the BS of the WBTS program with anybody else.

ActuaI I think your story is a great description of the way it happens for so many of us. Slow starts, then fast—fast and gone.