Sound Familiar?

peacefulpete

A Republican congressman voted his conscience to impeach Trump. The results might surprise some of us.

"My dad's cousins sent me a petition - a certified letter - saying they disowned me because I'm in 'the devil's army' now," Kinzinger said in a phone conversation on Thursday. "It's been crazy, when you have friends - that you thought were good friends that would love you no matter what - that don't."

OR HOW ABOUT:

“He specifically told me, ‘You are no longer my mother, because you are voting for Trump’,” Gomez, 41, a personal care worker in Milwaukee, told Reuters.

The point is, politics can easily become as fanatical as any religion. The dangers of psychological attraction to some consuming group identity and ideology is something former JWs, aware of the pain of loss of family and friends, should be more woke to. But we must be aware it is something we are all susceptible to, there is no vaccine for this all-or-nothing group thinking. Perhaps for some, our experience may even have left us craving a new community similar in its exclusivity and certainty. For some their "new" religion is attacking their old one.

When I read that first quote above this morning it occurred to me that half the country has disfellowshipped the other half. The reasons from both sides are similarly couched in moralizing arguments of good vs evil, us vs. them.

Can't we see clearer than the general population just how much pain this divisive rancorous politics has caused families? My JW father is dying of covid19 in the hospital right now and all this bitterness and contempt surrounding me, religious and political, feels so completely empty.

Rivergang

There are many parallels between religious fanaticism and political; with one example being suicide bombings.

During the first Indochina War (1946-1954), Communist Viet Minh forces employed “Death Volunteers” to breach the barbed wire entanglements. ( Any other army would use a Bangalore torpedo). This is well described in Bernard B. Fall’s work “Hell in a very small place - the siege of Dien Bien Phu, 1954”.

The political fanatic can be every bit as dangerous as the religious one - and even at the very best, just as big a pain in the @$$.

DATA-DOG

We should be able to spot propaganda and Ideological Possession better than most. It’s puzzling that some here do not.

DD

ShotWhileTryingToEscape

“We should be able to spot propaganda and Ideological Possession better than most. It’s puzzling that some here do not. “

—DD

So here on the board you find it puzzling that we can’t always spot propaganda and political possession? It’s a process,DD. It takes time. Didn’t a lot of us arrive not really able to understand what had happened and why? And we still are— many of us trying to understand.

If I am not mistaken, one poster, cofty, said he became an evangelical pastor after leaving the JWs. Eventually he became an atheist. Now —that is a journey! He bounced on landing like most of us. He didn’t have an instant recognition of “propaganda and ideological possession”.It took time.

But, that said— must we all agree with him? No.

I have seen some on this board leave (or be expelled?) because of disagreements over social and political views. What the hell?

It would have been better for all( even the lurkers!) If basic respect for the other person was used. Just basic respect.

HowTheBibleWasCreated has a coversation going now asking why no one gave him the a**kicking he needed to get him out of the Cult. Virtually all responsers to HTBWC ‘s OP maintain that direct attacks never succeed with JWs.

Yet direct attacks happen here when it’s political and it doesn’t help change anyone’s thinking either. In fact it only seems to freeze a position. Can’t we sift through things together with respect? And let the discussion be deeper not hotter.

Personally, I lurked here a long time before venturing into the forum. Why? I wasn’t sure if it was safe for someone who had already been ShotWhileTryingToEscape.

I love your OP, peacefulpete, and yet am sorry for you that your dad’s dying prompted it. Much appreciation for launching an open discussion instead of a divisive diatribe.

Rivergang

ShotWhileTryingToEscape,

Hear, Hear!

”let the discussion become deeper, not hotter”

Too true!

MeanMrMustard

Ok, so let’s try :

Why do you (not directed toward anyone in particular) think there is such a political divide?

wozza

I don't live in America so can only see, read ,hear of what is supposed to be happening there ,but to me it does'nt seem to be the America of yesterday.

Here in Australia, which is basically run by 2 parties, people mainly seem to be of the opinion that politicians from both sides are self serving and not much in the way of meaningful policies divides them.

But since the likes of Trump got in power it appears a strong division is happening there. I wonder if years ago Americans would have supported a Trump ,the way the media portrayed him and the way he portrayed himself to the public. But he did get voted in and America got what they wanted ,well at least the ones that voted for him.

So maybe it's the fault of the people then that put him there due to changing attitudes and beliefs ,lots of things contribute to change not just a Trump.

I think there are 2 types of people generally like the bible says, the sheep and the goats with the sheep being more common.

The sheep love to follow the popular path and worship other people as can be seen by movie stars singers politicians ,religious leaders etc they are blind to the fact that they eat and shit like everyone else. People have to belong to teams. Hence people worshipping Trump and other "leaders" perhaps are forgetting history and what it teaches. They have forgotten that there are people who are decent who would be better serving them as leaders and choose the leaders who are narcississtic or violent or forceful like history shows.

Yes I am a goat and maybe it seems to others I am fooling myself that decent people will take back the world but hope gives one something to live for ,but maybe the leaders the people select are a reflection of what people have become .

This is not meant to offend anyone, just an observation

ShotWhileTryingToEscape

People have to belong to teams. —wozza

I agree with you most strongly. Though you said “a lot of things contribute to change”, wozza, the pressure to “join up” is really powerful. Especially when there is a dominant person or persons can make or break you and your family. Then we feel we must choose their side whether or not we agree with the values and concerns they hold. Soon so many of your family, neighbors and friends jump on the team no one can tell who is “all in” . Everyone ? Or are done holding back— like you.

(We should understand how subversive this forced can be; in JW land the need to conform made it hard to live with a marriage partner if we held non-conformist views — would they leave us? “out” us to the other team members?)

Yea, People feel like they have to belong to teams .

But about The U.S, being different? I disagree. For Covid I have been reading books and scholars papers to understand the mindset of soldiers and civilians North and South before during and after our American Civil War.

I was surprised to find the people back then no different in their general attitudes similar to everything I see and hear of my neighbors and friends now! Even the pressure to join something you did not support ( on both sides!) was there . There was anti- immigrant rhetoric, racism, charges of election fraud over the election of the “Rail Splitter” in the White House, and do on—even Fake News shows up as a complain early in the War. And the inflamed passions ! No wonder there was a war.

Why is there such a political divide though? That is still the question to answer.

If I try to respond to Mean Mr, Mustards Mustard’s question I will have to say it later because it was way late when I saw these posts snd l have to get some slerep.💤🌙

peacefulpete

.Divides have always existed. But a new element is the weaponizing of the internet. The ideal that the internet would be a forum for a healthy exchange of ideas has been smothered by the use of the internet to influence and manipulate. Ugly ideologies, bunk pseudoscience, disinformation profiteering have proliferated unchecked by the traditional restraints of threats of liability and libel. When any charismatic or attractive blogger with a sensational story is seen as an expert, the real experts are ignored and distrusted. Facts and best-information approaches to social issues have a hard time competing in a marketplace of ideas offering 24hr scandal and conspiracy.

What's more, people choose not to fact check, that is proof to me not only of disinformation but successful self imposed information control.

My business involves antiques. We laugh at the quaint and amateurish marketing of generations past. To sell a product they told you about the product. Today's professional influencers and highly paid psychological strategists don't try to sell a product they manipulate buyers. All-pervasive technology has plugged us in to that manipulation many hours a day, endless, relentless, tirelessly competing for our money and minds. Many consumers have grown numb to this with regards products and services but still seem unaware their politics are similarly being shaped. Many so-called news outlets were crafted with influence rather than information as the objective. Truthiness has nearly replaced truth. IMO, Our inherent weakness for confirmation bias and tribal identity have been exploited on a new scale through ubiquitous technology and manipulative marketing.

MeanMrMustard

@peacefulpete:

Divides have always existed. But a new element is the weaponizing of the internet.

So you are saying that these divisions have always been there, but the internet has caused them to become more explicit? If that is true, then it dodges the real question: Why is there a divide? What *really* is the divide?

Or are you saying that the divide is actually small, and the internet is creating a fake divide?

Sound Familiar?

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