silentlambs

Joined

• started 262 topics
• posted 730 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by silentlambs

• 
  44

  What Satanic Rituals???

  by Nathan Natas in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in a recent post metatron and judith mentioned in passing that dubs they knew had been involved in satanic rituals.

  forgive my morbid curiousity, but exactly what sorts of rituals were these?.

  bear in mind that as dubs we were told that the rituals of the roman catholic church were satanic, that smurfs were satanic, that rock'n'roll was satanic, etc., etc.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  silentlambs

  Name was used along with symbols and specifc instruments.
• 
  44

  What Satanic Rituals???

  by Nathan Natas in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in a recent post metatron and judith mentioned in passing that dubs they knew had been involved in satanic rituals.

  forgive my morbid curiousity, but exactly what sorts of rituals were these?.

  bear in mind that as dubs we were told that the rituals of the roman catholic church were satanic, that smurfs were satanic, that rock'n'roll was satanic, etc., etc.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  silentlambs

  I wish to respond to this thread as I have talked to many who claim to be part of satanic ritual abuse within the wt organization. When I heard the first claim I of course discounted it as being false or from someone who was mentally disturbed. But then I got another story and then another. It has began to be a very distrubing picture. All these people live with absolute terror of the WT organization. I have had reports from twelve different major metropolitian areas across the USA. Of particuliar interest is the similiar things described from people who do not know each other. Things like animal sacrifice, child sacrifice, CO's and DO's in charge along with prominent elders, video taping of child molestation, specific rituals that lead up to the abuse, groups of children being involved, the gatherings were often called called family studies for a cover, threats of death if ever told to the outside. These are just of few of commonalities between the stories I have heard. These people have acute memories of times dates and places including names which I have verified were in specifc congregations. It is very disturbing to say the least. I perhaps could include the story below. It does not describe satanic rituals but this person was a brother when he was caught and was reinstated before he went to trial. When two brothers called the society about it they were told to keep out of it. It is courious to understand why the wt would want a known child pornogopher to be reinstated so soon. I will have more information about this soon. His name was Leroy Kemmish. It is my understand he remains a JW in good standing.
  silentlambs

  NATIONAL
  CHILD PORN BUYERS BUSTED POSTAL INSPECTORS' 2-YEAR OPERATION NETS 45 NATIONWIDE, MORE TO BE ARRESTED
  RANDOLPH E. SCHMID, THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

  05/10/1996
  Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
  SOONER
  A-1
  (Copyright 1996)

  When postal inspectors came across what appeared to be a major child pornography operation, they decided it was too good a chance to pass up. Instead of just shutting it down, they changed the name and went into business.

  The results of their two-year undercover operation were announced yesterday: 45 arrests in a nationwide sting, as many as 70 more to come.

  "Simply shutting down Overseas Male (pornography distributor) wasn't enough because those who created the demand for child pornography were still out there," Chief Postal Inspector Kenneth J. Hunter said.

  He said investigators concentrated on people who sought videos involving boys aged 7 to 11 - offering the material for sale and bringing charges if the individuals accepted delivery of the videos.

  "We are not talking about adult videos someone can rent at some corner video store," Hunter said.

  The videos offered by Overseas Male were "in actuality videotaped evidence of a crime taking place. They show images of children having sex with each other or with adults - children as young as 7, 8 or 9 years old being sexually abused in unthinkable ways."

  Postal inspectors in Pittsburgh conducted three local investigations as part of the national operation. The local investigations resulted in the indictment in January of Milton J. Jones, 63, of South Side, on two counts of receipt and possession of pornographic materials.

  Jones pleaded guilty to the possession of pornography charge and admitted he had three videotapes that depicted sexual activity by minors. He is to be sentenced June 21.

  In more than 20 cases, Hunter said, investigators uncovered evidence of child abuse in addition to the charges of possessing pornography.

  In one case, Ray Leslie Opfer of Reno, Nev., has been sentenced to life in prison for molesting two brothers aged 9 and 12 after inspectors discovered a collection of sexually explicit videos of neighborhood children in his home, Postal Inspector Ray Smith reported.

  In another case, authorities said Robert H. Ellison, 65, of Chicago, pleaded for the prompt return of his videos because he feared that he would molest children if he could not relieve his urges through pornography. He was ordered held without bond as a threat to the community.

  "Pedophiles aren't always strangers in your community," Hunter said. "They are men of every social stratum and occupation: teachers, professors, computer programmers, even sometimes members of the clergy."

  He said his office began receiving complaints in 1993 from people who had been sent advertising for sexually explicit videos by Overseas Male, a San Diego company.

  One of the operators of that business, James Leroy Kemmish, was arrested in 1994 by customs agents as he returned from Mexico. Agents found $16,000 in cash and child pornography when they searched his baggage. He has been convicted of distributing child pornography and sentenced to five years in prison.

  Hunter said the agency decided to use its mailing lists to try and track down buyers of the porn. It sent out some 2,000 solicitations under the name Island Male, inviting people to send back a card if they were interested. They also had the option to ask to be removed from the mailing list or of simply throwing the solicitation away, Hunter noted.

  Those who asked for more information were sent letters discussing "steamy" videos involving boys and men of various age groups. Those who showed an interest in ages 7 to 11 were targeted.

  Smith explained that when these people placed an order, it was delivered by a postal inspector. If they accepted delivery, a search warrant was obtained and their home or business searched for evidence of possession of child pornography.

  Those regarded as threats to the community or likely to flee were arrested immediately, while cases were still being developed against many others, he explained.

  "We hope it makes a difference," Hunter said. "But we're not naive enough to think it will cause making child pornography or trafficking in it to end."

  In all, the postal service conducted 130 searches in 36 states during its undercover operation, called Operation Special Delivery. In addition to Pennsylvania, Nevada and Illinois, investigators conducted searches in Alabama, Arizona, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington and West Virginia.

  He said the videos sold for from $50 to $290, depending on the age of the children involved. A review of the company's financial records showed it grossed $10,000 a week during one six-month period.

  Copyright © 2000 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
• 
  9

  JWS - the Self-Referenced Organization

  by metatron in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in media presentations and defenses made in court, witnesses are.

  portrayed as having all beliefs and practises derived strictly.

  from the bible.. many of us here painfully realize this is a fiction.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  silentlambs

  Perhaps I might wade in here with the child molestation policy of the organization. It is another case in point as the GB knows they have made poor judgement choices in how child molestation victims are treated. To change would mean throwing out several wt articles and BOE letters that expose wrong thinking. Instead they choose to remain silent make minor adjustments behing the scenes and pretend they were right all along. In the meantime children are being hurt. They act with no compassion, more concerned with the protection of the appearance of their divine wisdom than what might happen to a child as a result of their stubborn hypocrisy. What better way to define the word wicked.
• 
  45

  Two Elders Came To My Door

  by silentlambs in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  well i guess wt is getting tired of waiting me out.

  two elders showed up at my door on halloween.

  they were not trick or treating, at least i think they were notat least they did not have candy bags.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  silentlambs

  I appreciate your advice and responses. While I can't go in to all the reasons for writing the letter I did, I thought carefully about how it was worded and did so purposefully. When two elders show up at your home unannounced in the middle of lunch hour fully dressed out with no bibles I have reason to believe they are not concerned about a shepherding call. As you may recall I played the elder game for close to twenty years and understand the dynamics at play. It was a simple act of aggression with an effort to produce or fabricate evidence to take congregational action. If they had enough evidence they would not have called at my home or could have simply called over the telephone to inform me of a meeting that would of course have been a formality for my DF.

  If they choose to go in offense then it requires you to take offensive actions to throw them back to defensive posture. I want to make them mad so they will do something stupid and then make them pay for it. One of the elders who called was the one I mentioned in my letter that was abusive in what he said about the victims being offended. He has on multiple occasions used antagonistic speech in person and from the platform. I have ignored him each time and not responded yet you can be sure they are all documented. Every statement I made I can prove to a court of law, if they wish to continue to harass my family and I then we shall dance.

  I think of an expression composed by Ben Franklin. It was, "don't tread on me."
  He came up with the expression in describing the rattlesnake and suggested it being the national symbol for the USA. He said the rattlesnake gives you fair warning, but if you persist it will then attack with deadly fury. It prefers to be left alone and will live in peace unless provoked. I like that analogy especially when I think of the way WT likes to tread on victims of molestation by use of WT policy. They have gotten away with it for years, yet that will change in the near future. Instead of the great concern WT manifests for the rights of an accused child molester they will learn the protection of the rights of the victim must be foremost in these matters. When I started this issue in the beginning I held respect for the WT and believed when they fully saw the extent of how children were being hurt they would move quickly to do right by the children. As matters have progressed their actions have made me lose all respect for WT leadership and view them as absolutely corrupt and wicked. Yes they are snakes that misrepresent the truth to hurt children and preserve a policy that they know destroys people's lives. Yes they are liars, especially when you consider this UN fiasco. I spoke to a brother yesterday who spoke with the service department on Thursday. When he asked a senior member of service about the UN situation the Brother calmly replied, "now you know we would never set foot in the UN much less ever have a library card from the wild beast. You do not need to listen to all those lies out there, you just need to stick close to Jehovah's organization."
  
  How could the service department person not know about the UN matter and then offer such a lie. Liars indeed. It is a different world with the internet, information can be got out in a matter of minutes and sent around the world. WT can't tell a lie to one person and others not find out about it now. They can't take a victim of molestation and tell them they are alone and no one will listen or believe them anymore. What used to work is out the window and now WT is going to have to get honest and tell the truth or get nailed and exposed for the snakes they are.

  Are you listening WT? "Don't tread on me."
• 
  45

  Two Elders Came To My Door

  by silentlambs in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  well i guess wt is getting tired of waiting me out.

  two elders showed up at my door on halloween.

  they were not trick or treating, at least i think they were notat least they did not have candy bags.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  silentlambs

  If I were to place a flag in my front yard, would their be a scriptural basis for congregation action? Check your CD I think you will find it interesting...
• 
  45

  Two Elders Came To My Door

  by silentlambs in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  well i guess wt is getting tired of waiting me out.

  two elders showed up at my door on halloween.

  they were not trick or treating, at least i think they were notat least they did not have candy bags.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  silentlambs

  Well I guess Wt is getting tired of waiting me out. Two elders showed up at my door on halloween. They were not trick or treating, at least I think they were notat least they did not have candy bags. I chose not to answer as I am sure it was not a sheparding call. More like a two witness deal to trap me in some statement or fabricated statement and then take action. While I have no idea why they would call, I decide to go ahead and circle the wagons and send them the certified letter below. Do you think it will get a response?

  silentlambs
  __________________________________________

  10-31-01

  Draffenville Body of Elders
  Benton, KY 42025

  Dear Brothers,

  I am writing to request your cooperation regarding communication with my family or myself. It is my understanding that elders have been calling at my door with the intention of speaking with me. If you will review the certified letters I have sent from January to May of this year you will find several requests for information regarding events that happened in the Draffenville Congregation. At the end of each letter it has been very clear, I want an answer in writing for the various ways my name has been discredited before the congregation. You have repeatedly ignored my request and tried to speak with me about additional matters without honoring my requests. This creates a further basis to justify my feelings of mistrust toward anything verbally you might have to say. For your review you might consider the following:

  1. Being falsely placed on restrictions for one month before clearing up the matter with no announcement to the congregation to clear up the matter. I ask for the scriptural and theocratic guidelines for this action.
  2. Misinformation given in a “local needs” part by Tom Carruthers in which I was demonized to the congregation as well as the Societies Pedophile protection policy being wrongly presented. I ask for the scriptural and theocratic guidelines for this action.
  3. Watchtower PR producing and releasing video to local press in which my father calls me a liar on film and JR Brown completely misinforms the public about Watchtower policy. I ask for the scriptural and theocratic guidelines for this action.
  4. The deceptive practice of informing all speakers not to call on me for comments as I was being told by the Body of Elders I was free to comment at any time. I ask for the scriptural and theocratic guidelines for this action.
  5. Informing various persons in the congregation to treat me a disfellowshipped when there is no basis for such action to be taken. I ask for the scriptural and theocratic guidelines for this action.
  6. Pressuring fellow witnesses to stop working in my candle business due to the negative comments presented by representatives of Watchtower leadership thus causing financial hardship. I ask for the scriptural and theocratic guidelines for this action.
  7. Deceptively saying you cannot find a KM, personal literature orders and magazines when I have requested them. I ask for the scriptural and theocratic guidelines for this action.
  8. Forbidding anyone to work in field service along with me, and providing no territory in which to work in. I ask for the scriptural and theocratic guidelines for this action.
  9. Telling me I was not welcome at the meetings. I ask for the scriptural and theocratic guidelines for this action.
  10. Using a child molester as an example before the congregation on more than one occasion. When I confronted you with this matter the elders refused to review what the OM book states about how exemplary brothers should be used for privileges on the service meeting. I ask for the scriptural and theocratic guidelines for this action.
  11. When I made the statement that using a child molester in an exemplary position offended me, Brother xxxxxxxx stated, “The most offensive people take offense.” This comment was not only unloving but showed his complete lack of compassion for the victim who xxxxx xxxxxx molested. I ask for the scriptural and theocratic guidelines for this action.

  If I were to try and think further I am sure there are many other items that could be brought forward, but I believe the above should be sufficient to show the disingenuous actions of the Watchtower representatives acting at the guidance of the Watchtower home office. The above evidence clearly shows you cannot trust any word that comes out of the mouth of anyone who represents the Watchtower organization. Your actions force me to request the following stipulations:

  1. Any further communication must be in writing and sent to my attorney. His address is:

  xxxxxxxxxxxx
  xxxxxxxxxxxx
  xxxxxxxxxxxx

  2. Any verbal communication from this point forward will be considered harassment as you have repeatedly disregarded my request for answers in writing.
  3. I am formally requesting that no Jehovah’s Witness elder or member trespass on my property at anytime. Unless they are willing to undergo a complete background check for child molestation history and submit this to my attorney.
  4. I request that all questions submitted in previous letters be answered in writing to my attorney instead of being sent to me personally.

  It grieves me greatly to have to take this action to protect myself against brothers I at one time trusted so completely. Your actions have proved you to be otherwise. In order to be “cautious as serpents” it forces me to deal with you as the snakes you are.

  Thank you in advance for your quick response as I certainly wish to clear up any matter that might have you concerned for my spiritual welfare. Along with this letter goes my warm Christian love.
  Sincerely,
• 
  8

  German Radio Interview

  by silentlambs in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  i was sent this interview from may of this year.

  notice how the brother used the analogy of a child molester to describe df.

  the thought would carry if the person appeared to be repentant what would be the action then?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  silentlambs

  I was sent this interview from May of this year. Notice how the brother used the analogy of a child molester to describe DF. The thought would carry if the person appeared to be repentant what would be the action then? Read the following comment.

  silentlambs
  ________________________________________________________________

  B.TV Talk – Focus: Jehovah’s Witnesses
  Broadcast of May 03, 2001 – B.TV – 8:35 P.M. – broadcasting time 26 minutes

  Presenter: Axel Dürr
  Guests: Dr. Jan Badewin, Prof. Gerhard Besier, Bernd Klar – spokesman of Jehovah’s Witnesses

  Dürr: Welcome to a new broadcast of B.TV talk. I’m glad that you at home have got time for us. Today we want to talk about Jehovah’s Witnesses. You all know those ladies and gentlemen who preferably stand in the pedestrian areas and hold up magazines: The Watchtower, Awake! . Today we’d like to deal with Jehovah’s Witnesses. What is the idea behind them, what is their world-view? There are competent guests here in the studio. I welcome Professor Gerhard Besier. You are a theologian at the Heidelberg university, fine that you are here. Then there is Bernd Klar, spokesman of Jehovah’s Witnesses, fine that you are here. Next to me is Dr. Jan Badewin, representative for sect affairs of the Protestant Church in Baden, fine that you are here. Well, perhaps a short definition of your position at the beginning? Would you please begin? What are Jehovah’s Witnesses?

  Klar: It really pleases me that you said in your introducing that Jehovah’s Witnesses are generally known. We are known for our standing in the streets and speaking to people. But especially for our going from door to door and speaking about God’s kingdom.

  Dürr: That means mission … ?

  Klar: Although there are relatively few of us. Few Witnesses here in Germany. We count some 190,000 who feel close to us, we are known through our magazines, Watchtower and Awake!. We endeavour to bring the message of the bible to the people. Worldwide, there are some 6,000,000 of us, somewhat more than 6,000,000 Jehovah’s Witnesses, and we are represented in nearly every country.

  Dürr: What are Jehovah’s Witnesses?

  Besier: A religion. There are great and small, older and newer religions, and Jehovah’s Witnesses are a late product of an awakening in the 19th century. Compared with other great religions, Jehovah’s Witnesses are rather a small religion.

  Dürr: What are Jehovah’s Witnesses?

  Badewin: Jehovah’s Witnesses are a classical sect, originated at the end of the 19th century, with quite special characteristics. They consider only themselves as true Christians, they think that no one except themselves can be saved, can survive the Final Judgement. They speak about the coming end times in a way that many people feel to be very threatening. And there are many problems in the Jehovah’s Witness milieu, and problems with those who try or have tried to leave the group.

  Dürr: Now we have got a problem: Religion, sect, we already notice that there a differences as to the assessment. Now, the Christian churches – Protestants, Catholics – unite many different groups under the roof of these churches. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not belong. Why not?

  Besier: There are many groups that do not belong. We must imagine that there are indeed many religions. There are Free Churches that are not included in the Land churches, and there are many small denominations. The term sect is negative in itself, and the whole description is negative. When speaking about this subject, we must consider the differences. In the mainstream churches there are many liberal people who are absolutely no devout Christians, and when they leave it does not pain anyone. The more intensive a religion is, and the more people invest into such a religion, the more painful is it if people are disappointed and leave. And that may be one of the phenomena that appear so amazing to the liberal mainstream church member. Not that anyone says: For heaven’s sake, why does it grieve him if he leaves? There are hundred thousands who leave the mainstream churches, and most of them do it without regret.

  Dürr: Mr. Badewin has listed some characteristics as to why he tends to say ‘sect’, and says: This is a sect. Why do you tend to say: ‘religion’? Do you emphasize what Mr. Badewin just said, or do you say: What he says is not correct?

  Besier: In my opinion most of it is not correct, and there exist no empirical data. There is always a tendency that majorities project something into minorities, that they say: such a minority is dangerous, those people are different. In most cases this is not true. It is a classical example of forming a prejudice, and it is quite amazing here in Germany: We have got a problem with right-wing radicalism, and everyone says: Why does such a thing exist? They say there is a hierachization in the religious sphere, at the top there are the great mainstream religions, then it goes to the bottom, and there are the worst, Scientology in our case. Presumably all of this is not very truthful. It serves the great religions. But if we look at America, things are quite different there. In America, religions are listed according to their size, not according to a hierarchy. For who is he who determines a hierarchy? In our Federal Republic there is a constitutionally established separation of state and church, and it cannot be that the great churches are fed up on the quiet, and the small ones are defamed as minorities. In my view that is the real problem.

  Dürr: Does that mean that tolerance is lacking? Or do you have some questions I’d like to ask you to put them to the representative of Jehovah’s Witnesses? That you say: This is a sect, and he must give me an answer to my questions?

  Badewin: I have been asked to give a very short assessment, and I have just answered very pithily. I do know that the word ‘sect’ is a term that is not used by any denomination to depict themselves, that it is a problematic term. That is quite clear to me. You asked why Jehovah’s Witnesses are not united under the roof of the other churches. The roof of no church does matter. Nobody expects that Jehovah’s Witnesses become Protestants or Catholics, but there are ecumenical unions. There are the Association of Christian Churches, the Evangelical Alliance, the Ecumenical Council of Churches. Jehovah’s Witnesses, however, are not able to relate to these unions, since they are of the opinion – you can read that in their literature, it is no wickedness – that they alone are the true religion, that anyone else is on an erroneous way.

  Dürr: Is that true? Do you say about yourselves that you are the only true religion?

  Klar: Well, you do not expect something different from a representative of the Protestant Church, do you? We often hear in the media that we are depicted as a sect. I think that we have quite a different perception. We speak very intensely with people we visit in our service from door to door or in the streets. I think this is absolutely not the opinion of the majority. We are very much interested in having a dialogue with people.

  Dürr: Any other denomination says this, too …

  Klar: When I speak about my faith – and as a Jehovah’s Witness I do speak about my faith and explain it actively – I am convinced, of course, that this is the true faith. But you will never read in our literature that Jehovah’s Witnesses believe, for example, that they alone will be saved. It is God who determines this, not Jehovah’s Witnesses. The apostle Paul, for example, says this quite clearly at Romans – I’ve got my bible – it is made quite clear that God alone determines who will be saved.

  Dürr: Well, we must ... so that the viewers know (drowns out Mr. Klar who is going on speaking) – what this is about. Jehovah’s Witnesses say that there are first of all 144,000 people, and then some others too, who will enter the kingdom of heavens, that means who are saved. And all the other ones will not be saved. There are some criteria.

  Klar: I’d like to interrupt you. At the beginning I said that there are more than 6 million Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide, so this is a miscalculation. It is a problem with this kind of discussions that things are simplified, and as you said yourself, it was said quite pithily. But then there remains only little substance. The bible clearly speaks – and now we have reached the stage of a theological consideration – about two hopes for men: a heavenly government made of kings and priests who are responsible for creating a paradise here on earth, and here on earth people who live here, the number of which is not named, a great crowd living here on earth under good conditions. We are awaiting this paradise which had already existed at the beginning of mankind, and we point out to the people that this kingdom, as we depict it, will exist here on earth. And this has nothing to do with a threatening message or so. We are enthusiastic that this kingdom will constantly exist here on earth, and we go to the people and point out to this wonderful hope. And from the reaction of the people we see that they regard this hope highly.

  Dürr: So, great consent for Jehovah’s Witnesses? Mr. Badewin?

  Badewin: On the other hand the battle of Armageddon plays a great role in your literature, and this is anything else than a positive description. Here, very brutal things come into play. To me, the problem lies in your statement – you say that other people can be saved, too. In your literature I can read: Long before Jehovah’s Witnesses existed, millions of other people could be saved. But can you really accept Protestants, Catholics, Methodists, New Apostolics as Christians who likewise get full salvation?

  Besier: Sorry now, but our discussion is distorted. The Roman-Catholic Church does not recognize our Land church as a church – we are both in the same, the Protestant, Land church – but as an ecclesiastical community only. And on the verge of the Protestant Church there are evangelical groupings that believe similarly intensely, and that is the problem. He who finds such a complete fulfilment in his religion has it hard to perceive elements of truth in other religions. Only if religions become liberal – if you can compare them – then you are able to speak with another, in liberal surroundings – oh, you think this way, well, I think differently. On the other side it is clear that the great mainstream churches join forces if it goes against Jehovah’s Witnesses or the New Apostolic Church. And it would be a completely confused and incorrect picture if you said that all the Christian Churches get on well together, and that there are only some wicked sects that believe complete nonsense. We must accept that part of the doctrines that are teachings generally accepted by Jehovah’s Witnesses, can well be found in the history of the Christian churches. We come across something, and we say: We know this, we know this. The blood issue or similar subjects – these are things which already played a role with Bengel and in Pietism. And we shall not classify; we shall not present things as criminal; we shall not psychologize and say, those people are sick, etc. – that is nowhere proven. That is the classical – I repeat that – example of forming a prejudice.

  Klar: Perhaps I may add: If you mention the battle of Armageddon, for example, you must of course decide whether you move away from what the bible says – I have got my bible with me, and I could read out the story of ...

  Badewin: No, we don’t need that ... Well, yes ...

  Klar: Here we have a theological conflict. If you say that what the bible says has no value to you, and we are therefore worth condemning, we can live with it. If we, however, refer to the bible, and as Jehovah’s Witnesses we do that, then we must accept what the bible says.

  Dürr: Could the real problem be that you do not only refer to the bible, but that you take it in a literal sense?

  Klar: We do not take everything from the bible in a literal sense, for the bible has many visions, prophecies – only one example: bringing up children. People reproach us with using rigid methods in rearing children, but it is clear to every Jehovah’s Witness that rearing children is the focal point, and love is the principle underlying the bringing up of children. If we took a look into the Catechism we would find the very same scripture quoted there: ‘The one holding back his rod is hating his son.’ This is a statement from the bible, and now it is the responsibility of the parents to educate their children according to the principle of love.

  Dürr: ‘If you love your son you will be prompt to chastise him.’ And that’s saying a lot.

  Klar: Yes, that is even contained in the Catechism, you can read it there. This is something taken from the bible. And now parents, who are responsible for educating their children, bear the responsibility to educate their children according to its standards and principles.

  Dürr: We shall immediately go on speaking about the bible; we must just make a pause, then we shall be back again.

  ADVERTISING

  Dürr: Now we continue to speak about Jehovah’s Witnesses, and we just spoke about the bible and whether it is to be taken in a literal sense. How must we take it, how must we interpret it in our time? Mr. Badewin please...

  Badewin: Well, I think that there are, of course, many methods of bible interpretation and many different ways to read the bible, even within the Protestant Church, within the Catholic Church, which, as you rightly say, Mr. Besier, are no monoliths – and this is even true for the Catholic Church – but have many wings. But all those who live and believe there together, know that they are not alone, that they are not the only Christians, that there is a spectrum of different forms of belief, and that there is a certain spectrum as to the responsibility to live as Christians. And that is not a question of comparability, Mr. Besier, but a question of tolerance, and a question as to how far tolerance is a chance of religions. It is our task to introduce this tolerance and this rule of tolerance into religion again and again, for that is the very essence of the constitutional freedom of worship. And here, at this point, I’d like to ask you again: What can you say to a Protestant or a Catholic Christian? Must he become a Jehovah’s Witnesses in order to be saved?

  Klar: May I answer in short? Look, the willingness of Jehovah’s Witnesses to have a dialogue with people is, I think, as clearly to discern as in no other denomination. We are those – and this was Mr. Dürr’s introducing – who speak at the doors, who stand in the streets, who hold up the Watchtower magazines. And these are no monologues; instead, we seek to speak with people. And if anyone says at the door that he is a Protestant Christian and takes his faith seriously, then I will reply that I value that I have met a faithful person. And I mean that honestly, this is no farce. This is our attitude towards people who practise their faith, and you will read nowhere in our literature that we make a joke out of their faith. Instead, we try of course to read the bible, we study it, not only now and then, but daily. I for myself read in the bible daily and then try, of course, to live according to my faith.

  Dürr: Now we’re on the religious level. I’d like to go to the social level, for man is not only a religious but a social creature, too, who lives in certain groups within the society. And now it is the case that with Jehovah’s Witnesses in normal social life, the one or other thing is prescribed or banned. I do not believe that the children of Jehovah’s Witnesses are allowed to go to rock concerts; or at least there are great events of Jehovah’s Witnesses in stadiums where stage plays are performed, and a mother says: “You must not be sad, dear son, if you are excluded at school. You have the true faith, and rock music is wicked. Rather listen to other music, to Christian songs.” This is the case, isn’t it?

  Klar: Of course we try to live according to the bible. And it is true that the denomination of Jehovah’s Witnesses accepts advice from the bible and tries to translate it into modern life …

  Dürr: This means that you say to children who go to school: Give pop music or rock music a wide berth!

  Klar: No, any parents that have children decide for themselves what is appropriate for their children or not. I have experienced this for myself, for I was reared as a Jehovah’s Witness, and according to the guidelines of the parents certain things were possible and certain things not.

  Dürr: On the one hand you organize these big events, in the great stadiums you perform those amateur plays where you say: This is good, we can live according to it and we do want it that way; on the other hand you leave it to people and say that they may do it this way, but somehow you prescribe it …

  Besier: I am sorry, but I must interfere...

  Dürr: I’m talking about the social...

  Besier: Indeed, this is the very problem. We must differentiate the dogmatic teachings from the behaviour, from the actual behaviour, there is a big gap between the Protestant and the Catholic Church, as it is here, too. One example: We have just analysed an empirical survey, and it shows that it is perfectly usual to have children’s parties. And look, if a Jew were your guest you would certainly not serve him an escalope of pork. That’s just the way it is, and we must … – this belongs to tolerance – we must respect that Jehovah’s Witnesses just do not have birthday parties. But there are other children’s parties.

  Dürr: But no disco? Disco, what about disco?

  Klar: That rests with the parents. We cannot reduce this to one single case, since it is the responsibility of the parents. This becomes clear when you read our literature, Mr. Badewin, and I hope you have done this – then you will see that it is not the denomination that is responsible for the education of the children. It is not Jehovah’s Witnesses who say this or that – the parents are responsible. But of course Jehovah’s Witnesses want parents to educate their children according to their standards.

  Dürr: Everybody does that!

  Klar: Every Protestant or Catholic person does that ...

  Dürr: In the bible we do not find the word disco.

  Klar: No, but we can find there a standard, and we try to let our behaviour be governed by standards. For example, there is a biblical standard: ‘Bad associations spoil useful habits.’

  Dürr: Disco...

  Klar: That may be the case with some parents. Precisely, yes!

  Badewin: But I think this involves not only discos, it already begins in the kindergarten that children are not allowed to have a birthday party, and they cannot expect the whole kindergarten group to cancel any birthday party just for the reason that there is a Witness child present that is not allowed to celebrate. They are not allowed to participate in dramas, they are not allowed to be elected as class spokesmen in school administration.

  Besier: ... this is not true ...

  Badewin: ... but of course ...

  Besier: ... no ...

  Badewin: But that are prejudices, Mr. Besier, you constantly speak about prejudices. Day after day we have to do with people who suffer from these points, who call us for this very reason, who want to speak with us from this very reason because they are not able to cope with these things from their personal experience.

  Besier: Precisely, because there is no tolerance – the tolerance you just upheld.

  Badewin: That has nothing to do with tolerance. These are people who suffer from these things.

  Besier: You really do not suffer if you cannot have a birthday party, do you?

  Badewin: But children suffer.

  Besier: If there is no Christmas.

  Klar: Perhaps I may refer to this issue. My parents were dedicated Jehovah’s Witnesses when I was a child. I experienced this myself. Well, even as a boy I was able to explain my personal beliefs to my school-fellows, they accepted it. I just said that I did not want to participate from this or that reason, but I was nevertheless part of the class. In no way I was an outsider. As I just mentioned I was part of the class through sports; we had much fun, and I had real friends in the class. It is not correct to latch on to birthday parties and say that our children are outsiders, and ... There are many denominations that do not know birthday, and their children have no birthday parties and yet are in no way outsiders. I even think that it is a task of the society to integrate such things and make the children no outsiders – we are really not interested to become outsiders. It’s a pity that this happens sometimes if it becomes a problem.

  Besier: In other societies like in the United States this is quite natural. There are Jews and Christians together. Of course you cannot celebrate Christmas as a Jew, can you? They are not willing to do this. And then you have to explain that only one group will celebrate Christmas, and the other group will have another feast. And then you can live together quite well. Tolerance which is always demanded, is a one-sided thing. It is demanded from the minorities, but instead it is a task of society as a whole. And we are just speaking about this issue: society. And this open society can take ... – that distinguishes it from dictatorships – it can quite well take this juxtaposition, a tolerance that is practised in daily life. That is the special thing about it. Just talk about tolerance is something anyone can do.

  Badewin: But this children’s birthday is only a sign of exclusion, and I know that many persons experienced that as an exclusion, and you cannot simply argue away this fact.

  Dürr: What is your experience as a representative of the church for sect affairs? Just now you described it as exclusion, even as pressure. Is there any pressure? Can you generally say that all the members of Jehovah’s Witnesses are under that pressure, or how does this become manifest?

  Badewin: Probably it is varying. Certainly there are people that feel quite well there and are absolutely socialized. But on the other hand all those, who get into conflict with the rules, experience the severity of that denomination. They experience to be disfellowshipped from that group, they experience no longer to be admitted. They experience what it means not to be treated as a normal ex-, but as an apostate. They experience what it means if all social contacts are called off.

  Dürr: How simple is it then to leave the Protestant or Catholic church, how simple is it to leave Jehovah’s Witnesses?

  Besier: There is an essential difference. It is difficult to become a Jehovah’s Witness, and it is very simple to leave. With the Protestant church it is the opposite: As it were, you have ever belonged, and when you leave you have to undergo some administrative acts to get out, and ... I’d merely like to point out to the formulation of your question: there are many representatives for sect affairs but no representatives for church affairs. We do indeed know that there are persons who suffer from the mainstream churches. There is something like ecclesiastically generated neuroses. Religion simply has two sides, that’s the point. There is one side that sustains, builds up, and there is that dark side. And the weaker a religion is ... – and the mainstream religions are weak religions, in the Protestant church there are only 5% participants in the services – I do not know the precise number for the Catholic church – only 5 % regularly participate in ecclesiastical life. Those are weak religions, they do not bind, they do not sustain, but of course they cause only little suffering. That is clear. And if we understand this correlation it becomes clear that it causes great pain when Jehovah’s Witnesses are expelled because they misbehaved morally and did not repent. Here Mr. Klar can certainly say some words. Or when they leave because they say: I had put my hope in that religion and became disappointed. Such things happen, but: If you do not put your hope in any religion you can, of course, not become disappointed.

  Badewin: We do not speak about hope merely, it matters that contacts are called off, it matters that people can no longer be the friends of persons they formerly associated with. Here it comes to loneliness and isolation, and unfortunately there are suicides of persons who left Jehovah’s Witnesses and were not able to cope with the problem of isolation.

  Besier: Such cases must be controlled very accurately!

  Badewin: Precisely!

  Besier: And there happen suicides in the mainstream churches too!

  Badewin: But of course.

  Besier: We must keep this in mind, too, this is the problem, and therefore I always come back to that subject. If you devote yourself to one particular group and have a particular prejudice in mind, you will always find reinforcing arguments. We know that very well from German history.

  Klar: Perhaps I may add something? Well, Mr. Badewin, I think we do absolutely agree that any suicide is one suicide too much. I think we need not speak about this. But of course, if a person is no longer a Jehovah’s Witness – as Mr. Besier just said; we made a survey, and it showed that it takes some 3 ½ years until someone can be a Jehovah’s Witness. It is preceded by an intense bible study, we take it seriously. A simple registration is not enough. It takes some 3 ½ years before someone is baptized as a Jehovah’s Witness, before he can call himself a Jehovah’s Witness. And now, if we considered the matter logically it would not be very logical to say that we are interested in disfellowshipping persons. But of course, Mr. Badewin, I must be quite blunt: if, for example, a child molester showed up in a congregation and did not change his habit and showed no works of repentance, then we would no longer call him a Jehovah’s Witness. Then the person will be disfellowshipped, for we’d like to dissociate ourselves from such actions.

  Badewin: Critics matter, not child molesters, we must really make a clear difference here.

  Klar: Yes, but the bible determines the span of points why someone can no longer be a Jehovah’s Witness. But, Mr. Badewin, I myself am an elder in a congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses. We really do not make it easy for ourselves to disfellowship a person. For we have intense feelings towards that person. We regard ourselves as a worldwide brotherhood, and so we fight for every single person, that he may keep his faith and we can continue to regard him as a Jehovah’s Witness. As a rule: If I were saying today that I do no longer want to be a Witness, that I want to leave the Kingdom Hall, nothing would happen to me. My brothers would speak to me, they would visit me and ask why I do no longer want to be a Witness ...

  Badewin: The ex-Witnesses do see this differently ... the ex-Witnesses do see this differently!

  Klar: If I were actively working against the denomination and not keeping critical thoughts for myself but were making statements in the public, then this would have a different dimension.

  Badewin: Do you have it out with your critics?

  Klar: Yes, of course!

  Badewin: Why, then, don’t you want to have critics in this discussion?

  Klar: The bible says this quite clearly ...

  Badewin: Oh, really?

  Klar: ... that anyone who leaves us ... take, for example, the Letter of Peter, it says that we don’t have contact with those people.

  Badewin: That’s precisely what I wanted to hear.

  Klar: But before this happens, Mr. Badewin, there is an intense discussion and treatment of the problem with the concerned person. We do not take it easy to disfellowship persons, that must be said.

  Besier: I know that from other denominations. You should better not ask a runaway priest about the Catholic Church.

  Dürr: Unfortunately our time is up, we shall go on discussing, perhaps you at home will go on too, but what has been said was clear. We had invited a critic, too, and he was not permitted to come. You say this is in the bible. What a pity, for to me that is a form of democracy to discuss with critics, too. Thank you. This was B.TV talk, have a nice time at home.
• 
  16

  Bethel move scrapped??

  by JEMIMAH in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i recieved a telephone call from a prominent bethelite yesterday.

  he told me that the proposed london bethel move to milton keynes had been scrapped.

  the reason, brooklyn feel that since sept 11 the big a is so close less than a year away (right!!!!!

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  silentlambs

  The big "A" stands for "A Lawsuit" with many to follow. When the Society starts paying out millions to victims of WT policy it will seem like Aramageddon to many building projects that might not have the funds to be finished. Yes it is true brothers "Aramageddon" will come this year it is a fact, it will just not be the way most within think it to be. It will be Aramageddon for WT policy hurting children.
• 
  5

  JW Molesters Mentioned News

  by silentlambs in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  below is the guardian article by stephen bates.

  as you read down you will find jw's mentioned along with the catholics as having serious problems with child molestation issues.

  think about it, a year ago this would have been unheard of, yet due to the efforts of so many who are no longer silentlambs, around the world jw's are comming to be compared with the catholics when it comes to hurting children.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  silentlambs

  Below is the Guardian article by Stephen Bates. As you read down you will find JW's mentioned along with the Catholics as having serious problems with child molestation issues. Think about it, a year ago this would have been unheard of, yet due to the efforts of so many who are no longer silentlambs, around the world JW's are comming to be compared with the Catholics when it comes to hurting children. Everyone is coming to know WT policy hurts children, yet the GB steadfastly maintains they will never change their policy.

  What does Jehovah do with "stiffnecked" people? Stay tuned much more is in the works. Run Wt Run.....

  silentlambs

  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Archbishop pays for Catholic church's complacency

  The removal of Archbishop Ward following a string of paedophilia scandals is just a small part of the church's efforts to improve its unsavoury reputation, writes Stephen Bates

  Stephen Bates, religious affairs correspondent
  Friday October 26, 2001

  When the Vatican acts it can do so quite ruthlessly. Today, John Aloysius Ward, the recalcitrant Roman Catholic archbishop of Cardiff, was summarily removed from his post by the Pope himself in the wake of a series of scandals in his diocese involving paedophile priests.
  Archbishop Ward, who is 72 and so theoretically had nearly another three years to go before reaching retirement age, did not want to go and had incautiously given interviews to local newspapers and the more reactionary Catholic press stating his intention to stay.

  He went to Rome last week for a half-hour long one-to-one with the Pope to press his case. His answer has come swiftly and humiliatingly in the citing of Canon Law 401.2, which gives the pontiff power to remove a diocesan bishop who, "because of illness or some other grave reason has become unsuited for the fulfilment of his office". Only the Pope could order him to retire.

  Since Archbishop Ward claimed in his ill-fated interviews to be in the peak of health some other reason for his departure must be deduced. In truth he had to go and perhaps only an aged and long-serving bishop would ever have thought he could have stayed. For Archbishop Ward had harboured not one but two paedophile priests, both of whom are now serving jail sentences for offences against children.

  The first, Father John Lloyd, was the archbishop's press officer, the second, Father Joe Jordan, was ordained by the archbishop in 1998 in the teeth of warnings from a fellow bishop that he was unsuitable. Jordan, who had earlier been banned from teaching even stayed for a while at the archbishop's house but Ward earlier this month was still claiming that he had no idea of his proclivities.

  Jordan, who coached football as a pretext to meet young boys, was jailed for assaulting two nine-year-old boys. In the current climate of the church there was no excuse for Ward's behaviour. He acted in defiance - or ignorance - of guidelines adopted in 1994 intended to prevent such disasters occurring.

  Archbishop Ward has not been helped by his arrogant and obstinate manner that has turned many priests and congregations in his diocese against him - including all the canons he himself appointed to assist at his cathedral - and which led him wilfully to refuse to see the writing on the wall when the Papal Nuncio to Britain - the Pope's ambassador - wrote to him earlier this year suggesting he might retire quietly.

  Since 1994 and continuing problems, of which the Jordan case was one, the church has brought Lord Nolan and an independent committee in to recommend even tougher rules for clergy and church workers in an effort to reduce the risk still further

  The Catholic church has been saddled with the public humiliation of a series of high-profile cases of sex abuse by priests and is desperately trying to overcome the scandal. In fact, Catholic priests - and other clergy - are statistically much less likely to be sex offenders than other groups but every case produces shame and damaging headlines.

  About 28 priests have been convicted since 1995 and new cases crop up every few months - only this week a priest in Reading was arrested for possession of pornographic images on his computer.

  Other churches have their problems too and have been much more hesitant in dealing with them. The Jehovah's Witnesses, who face a string of court cases in the US, decline to investigate allegations unless there are two independent witnesses and advise parish elders to burn any complaints set down in writing.

  But, in a climate where the church knows it has to be seen to be above suspicion some of Lord Nolan's remedies are drastic, including police checks on every candidate for the priesthood, child protection officials in every parish, annual diocesan reports and even glass-fronted confessionals so that a priest hearing confession from a child is in view at all times.

  Some in the church think this is going too far but Archbishop Ward has paid the penalty for the decades of complacency that preceded such moves. Whether the new guidelines will remove the church's unsavoury reputation however only time will tell.
• 
  9

  Do You Possess The "flag" In Your Life?

  by silentlambs in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i recently watched a movie about a struggle for survival.

  the story was set in a military prison where a recently incarcerated general led an uprising against a cruel and murderous colonel who happened to be the warden of the prison.

  the general on newly arriving wanted nothing to do with dissidents saying he had fought all the wars he wanted to.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  silentlambs

  I recently watched a movie about a struggle for survival. The story was set in a military prison where a recently incarcerated general led an uprising against a cruel and murderous colonel who happened to be the warden of the prison. The general on newly arriving wanted nothing to do with dissidents saying he had fought all the wars he wanted to. Yet when a young lad he had befriended was killed in cold blood, it moved him to take a stand. He informed the warden he had 24 hours to tender his resignation, as he was unfit to command. This of course led to a confrontation in which an object to designate who won the confrontation, all boiled down to who possessed the “flag” of the compound.

  I personally related this story to the struggle between the WT organization and silentlambs. In my opinion, the actions of leadership, by choosing to allow children to be hurt when informed of proper action, has resulted in them being unfit to command or direct people in the name of God. The voices of the many who have been molested are the uprising that has steadily grown to such an extent that now around the world JW’s are being recognized as another religion with serious child molestation problems. In addition, lawsuits will expose the uprising yet further and then you have Dateline, which will no doubt pound the proverbial nails into the coffin, especially if WT chooses to try and stonewall their way through this one. This time it will not work. The roaring of the lambs is the walking papers for WT leadership and they are to stupid to see it coming, much like the warden in the story.

  The question remains, what does the flag stand for? I began to think about this, as it really becomes the crux of the entire story. It is no doubt a symbol of who has control, but I think it goes deeper than just that. It is a symbol of something that the party who is in the wrong can no longer possess. Due to poor strategy and unjust acts they are stripped of the right to possess the symbolic “flag.” The “flag” in my opinion stands for honor and integrity. These qualities have been lost by the WT and by doing so they have thus lost the right to provide leadership. It is honor and integrity the organization attacks whenever you get crossways with anything the WT tries to force you to do. They strip you of all self-respect and make you feel you are worthless without them. Yet the honor you have as a person and the integrity you exhibit toward all you come in contact with in life show you to be beyond WT control. When you keep your honor and integrity, in effect you win the battle, you win control of your life.

  So I ask a question, are you in possession of the “flag” in your life? If not then WT will always have the upper hand and will beat you down with self-destructive behavior. You have to break free of the programming, seize the real truth that you are what you think. What you think of yourself, your family and how you interact with others will show whether you possess in your character the honor and integrity WT has tried to destroy. If you feel at loss with this, do what ever it takes to get it back, use therapy, medication, or perhaps a little patience and time to heal. In the end, to live your life with honor and integrity will make you proud of who you are and of great value to those that are part of your life.