Posts by Recovery

117

My video recorded apostasy trial is now live

by RayPublisher in

part 3 (which is where the actual meeting begins) is finished.

it took my computer hours and hours to render and upload it!!

anyway, this is what i just posted on my youtube channel:.

Recovery

Wow, this is interesting.

3

What Is The True Source Of The Unnumbered Great Crowd?

by wannabe in

what is the true source of the unnumbered great crowd?.

does it make any sense, to believe that a great unnumbered crowd that no man could number, could come out of the great tribulation predicted by the son of god, jesus christ?

now, i myself, when it comes to mathematics, am certainly no rocket-scientist, but how intelligent do you have to be, to know that kind of number, could never possibly come out of a numbered population, of say, some, eight billion.

Recovery

39

For Recovery: A discussion about the Great Crowd and the Other Sheep

by Londo111 in

recovery,.

as requested, a discussion on the great crowd and the identity of the other sheep.. .

first question: where are the great crowd rendering sacred service day and night?.

Recovery

So basically Londo's argument comes to down to three points:

1. The Great Crowd are in the temple sanctuary

2. They cannot be in the courtyard, which is outside the sanctuary, since they are in the sanctuary

3. Those in the sanctuary perform priestly duties/services, and thus those who perform priestly duties must have a heavenly hope as 1 Peter 2:5 indicates.

This line of reasoning would be definitive and conclusive, except the word "naos" is not used exclusively for the sanctuary itself. It is a logical fallacy to assert that the use of "naos" in Revelation 7 conclusively signifies that this must be the temple sanctuary. As this shows (http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3485&t=NIV) naos is used over 40 times in the NT and it does not always exclusively signify the temple sanctuary.

An example of this is: 1 Corinthians 3:16 "Do YOU not know that YOU people are God’s temple (naos), and that the spirit of God dwells in YOU?"

Also we have Ephesians 2:20, 21 "20 and YOU have been built up upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone. 21 In union with him the whole building, being harmoniously joined together, is growing into a holy temple (naos) for Jehovah."

So the use of "naos" does not obligatorily place the great crowd in heaven or before a figurative "temple sanctuary". Now let's notice the latter part of verse 15 ..... "and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them." Note that Jehovah will spread his tent or his holy abide of habitation over them. According to Londo's interpretation, the great crowd are a heavenly class. How could God spread his tent over those who are already dwelling and living in his area of habitation, heaven?

Further proof that the "great crowd" is not in reference to a heavenly class, can be found in Revelation 21. Notice the similar wording between Revelation 7 and Revelation 21

15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. = "3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them."

16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life.And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.” = And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” Revelation 22:1 (continuing the vision says): "And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb.."

It is obvious that these are parallel accounts. Now this poses some problems for those who hold the view that the great crowd is a heavenly class.

Why does God have to spread his tent over those who are already in heaven? Why does the scripture say God will reside with them, when he is already residing with them as they are in heaven? And why do both visions mention the wiping away of tears and death and pain when these things do not occur in heaven? Why will God be with them, when he is already with those who are in heaven?

Finally, the parallel vision in Revelation 21 in verse 22 clears it all up for us: "And I did not see a temple in it (the holy city of New Jerusalem), for Jehovah God the Almighty is its temple, also the Lamb [is].." Yes, the word for temple here is a form of naos (literally “divine habitation (dwelling).” Gr., na·on). So when we examine the parallel vision, everything is cleared up for us.

So how do "the great crowd" render sacred service before the throne day and night and in the Temple? Notice Revelation 7:10 "And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.” After surviving the great tribulation they are overjoyed because they have been saved by God and by the blood of the Lamb. They can render sacred service (worship, as you pointed out) in the Temple since Jehovah and Jesus are in their midst (dwelling among them, spreading his tent over them).

I believe this covers everything in post 1 quite thoroughly.

14

Recovery and Elephant

by tornapart in

jw
friends

would love to see them debating in a thread with each other.....

Recovery

Who?

11

I Couldn't Sleep Last Night.... All Jesus Had To Do Was Hand The Disciples The Scroll Of Daniel The Prophet

by BroMac in

.......all jesus had to do was hand the disciples the scroll of daniel the prophet.

3q's asked of jesus....when will these things be?

what of the conclusion of the system of things?.

Recovery

You are committing the logical fallacy of grouping several separate events into one, when that is not the case.

Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. . .

Notice that there is a distinction between 'that day and hour' and 'the days of Noah'. These are not the same event. Also, notice verse 44 'On this account YOU too prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that YOU do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming." The day and hour (no one knows about) = the coming of Christ. That is what is said to have been not known by anyone. There is a difference between Christ's coming and his presence.

I don't see how this disprove JW's wrong in any way since The Gentile Times are related to Christ's presence, not his coming.

23

Devil's Advocate , A QUESTION FOR RECOVERY AND OTHERS.

by DATA-DOG in

i noticed recovery's post is on lock-down.

i have never seen that happen.

i want to play devils advocate and recovery can answer honestly.

Recovery

Who cares if you don't read my posts? Of course that's a convenient copout when your back is pushed against the wall and you have nothing conclusive or substantiated to add to the discussion (especially your outlandish claims about serial CO molestors). Put up or shut up.

24

All scripture is inspired of god...which scripture?

by jamesmahon in

don't know why but was thinking of 2 timothy 3:16 last night (you know 'all scripture is inspired of god etc').

i was thinking this scripture is used by the jws as well as others to say that the bible is the word of god.

however, as the bible is a construct several hundred years after the death of christ each writer was unaware of the bible as a whole.

Recovery

I would like to point out that quotations from a book does not mean that the author believed it to be inspired. There are many quotations in the Hebrew Scriptures to books that were never considered 'inspired of God' by the Jews.

23

Devil's Advocate , A QUESTION FOR RECOVERY AND OTHERS.

by DATA-DOG in

i noticed recovery's post is on lock-down.

i have never seen that happen.

i want to play devils advocate and recovery can answer honestly.

Recovery

Please offer proof for your allegations. There is nothing naive about what I said. Any reasonable person can conclude that people would have to know a certain individual is a child molestor for those rules to be inforced.

16

How Did God Communicate His 1914 Decision?

by Cold Steel in

is the organization a self-appointed group of people and is it any better or worse than the rest of christendom?

and why does it avoid the use of the term church?.

one fascinating thing is that the wbts has repeatedly published the claim that in 1914, jesus returned invisibly and inspected all the religions then on the earth.

Recovery

Is the Organization a self-appointed group of people and is it any better or worse than the rest of “Christendom?” Of course it is much better than Christendom. There have been shed blood 'in the name of God' in war or crusades or anything of that sort by JW's. There has never been anyone burned to a stake or killed because they disagreed with something JW's teach. There have never been any mettling in politics and government disobeying Jesus' clear command to stay separate from the world. Instead of clinging to human traditions and "Christianized" pagan philosophies, JW's are humble enough to discard any wrong teachings that are not in harmony with God's word the Bible. Isn't the church still promoting it's same pagan doctrines it was 1,000 years ago?

And why does it avoid the use of the term CHURCH? We have no objection to the word church, it is simply used less often so that JW's are distinguished from the various religions of Christendom. A distinction has to be made. We do not want to ever be considered on par with Christendom's churches.

The measuring of the temple is similar to the inspection to which you refer and, btw, we did not measure up! That is why Jehovah allowed the two witnesses to be killed in 1918 which included our 8 officers of the Watchtower Society sentenced to four terms of 20 years I think in the Atlanta Penitentiary a total of 80 years. And our headquarters, Bethel, was closed down. Then, in 1919, we were figuratively speaking resurrected back to life . [See Revelation 11, which the JWs very badly interpret...or misinterpret] If someone can fill me in on the two prophets here, please do. If the eight officers (one prophet) and Bethel (the second prophet) were to witness for 3.5 years, be killed and resurrected 3.5 days later, the math does not seem to work. Both prophets were symbolically killed in 1918 and then (figuratively speaking) were resurrected in 1919. Pulling out my super duper calculator, that comes to...lemme see...uh...one year. How does that compute?? And is the Organization really saying that the measuring of the temple is a prophecy of God measuring them? Do I still hear the sound of stretching? Anyway...onward!

The two prophets (two witnesses) do not represent the eight officers/Bethel. Page 164 of the Revelation book talks about this when it says: "The John class had to preach this message for a definitely stated time: 1,260 days, or 42 months, the same length of time that the holy city was to be trampled underfoot.." The two witnesses = the John class = the anointed remnant. It later goes on to say: "The fact that they were symbolized by two witnesses confirms to us that their message was accurate and well founded.." So it is a misrepresentation of what JW's to teach to say that the two witnesses were Bethel and the eight men who were resurrected.

We know that the anointed remnant (as a whole) stopped preaching collectively in June of 1918. So we count back 1,260 days (3 1/2 years) and this brings us to December 1914. So the prophecy finds its fulfillment from December 1914 to June 1918. Now, notice Revelation 11:7-11 "And when they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will make war with them and conquer them and kill them. 8 And their corpses will be on the broad way of the great city which is in a spiritual sense called Sod′om and Egypt, where their Lord was also impaled. 9 And those of the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their corpses for three and a half days, and they do not let their corpses be laid in a tomb. 10 And those dwelling on the earth rejoice over them and enjoy themselves, and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those dwelling on the earth. 11 And after the three and a half days spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet, and great fear fell upon those beholding them. 12 And they heard a loud voice out of heaven say to them: “Come on up here.” And they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them."

This cannot be a literal 3 1/2 day period. Why? Because the Bible says these corpses were laid on the broad way of Sodom and Egypt, where Jesus was impaled. Then the nations and the peoples and the tribes will look at the dead corpses for 3 1/2 days. They rejoice and celebrate for 3 1/2 days. Notice the scripture says 'they stood upon their feet' when the spirit of life from God entered into them. Their literal corpses have been revived and they have been resurrected and are now going to heaven. But 1 Corinthians 15 tells us 'flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God'. This large combination of things leads us to conclude that these are not 3.5 literal days, or 84 hours. Further proof of this in found back in verse 7 "And when they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will make war with them and conquer them and kill them.." Most people agree that the wild beast is the Anglo-American world power. Notice it says the wild beast 'ascends out of the abyss', meaning it appears during this time period. It is in the present tense. This had to have occurred sometime after the Wild Beast emerged (1914). Now if we interpret this literally, then the entire world looked at two dead bodies for 3 1/2 days and then saw them go up to heaven (two literal fleshly bodies). So then what does the 3 1/2 days represent? The Revelation book on page 168 says: Notice that in examining the experiences of God’s people at this time, it appears that while the 42 months represent a literal three and a half years, the three and a half days do not represent a literal period of 84 hours. Likely, the specific period of three and a half days is mentioned twice (in verses 9 and 11) to highlight that it would be only a short period compared with the actual three and a half years of activity that precede it."

16

Full time ministry Joy--or Lack Thereof

by WTWizard in

i can remember all the while i was in the cancer that they would trump up the value of pious-sneering.

one of those was the "joy" of serving jehovah full time.

they would always have these fantastic stories about how they had obstacles that they foolhardily disregarded, or that they got all these people into the cancer.. this is full of rubbish.

Recovery

Yes, of course....the usual fear tactics to scare a JW. Did you get that 'insight' on our fear of disobeying Jehovah and the FDS from Ray Franz or was it another one?