@paul from clevaland...good point...I know deep down how it will play out...guess I am looking for a multitude of counsellors to help me make sure I make the right decision...which is to keep stoom....
notsurewheretogo
JoinedPosts by notsurewheretogo
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90
Can this logic be refuted?
by notsurewheretogo ini was an elder until march 2012 until i resigned.
i then stopped going to meetings in october 2012 and have enjoyed 9 months of freedom that i have found to be jouful!
i loved learning ttatt and sites like this and jwfacts.com have been excellent.. i told the elders that i needed a break and that they should not contact me unless it was a social visit and true to their word they have done that.
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90
Can this logic be refuted?
by notsurewheretogo ini was an elder until march 2012 until i resigned.
i then stopped going to meetings in october 2012 and have enjoyed 9 months of freedom that i have found to be jouful!
i loved learning ttatt and sites like this and jwfacts.com have been excellent.. i told the elders that i needed a break and that they should not contact me unless it was a social visit and true to their word they have done that.
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notsurewheretogo
I'm intrigued by the responses.
Yes I've read Crisis of Conscience and saw Ray trying to use logic and it got him nowhere but you can't label every elder like that...there are sincere ones out there like I was and if someone had come to me with the scenario I painted at the start I wouldn't try and defend the F&DS without first listening to what the brother had to say and see his point of view...
I feel the elders would at least attempt to do the same with me...BUT I agree...the end result would still be disfellowshipping if someone said to me they don't believe that the F&DS are the Channel of God today...so I should expect the same to me...
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90
Can this logic be refuted?
by notsurewheretogo ini was an elder until march 2012 until i resigned.
i then stopped going to meetings in october 2012 and have enjoyed 9 months of freedom that i have found to be jouful!
i loved learning ttatt and sites like this and jwfacts.com have been excellent.. i told the elders that i needed a break and that they should not contact me unless it was a social visit and true to their word they have done that.
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notsurewheretogo
There are too many to thank but a lot of good replies...@AndDontCallMeShirley yeah I know all about the context of Pr 4:18 and your question is as good as the logic in my opening post.
@cognisonance...False Dichotomy...I see what you are saying...I agree...I am coming to the conclusion there is no god but the reason why I didn't mention that option is simply that option is not in the mind of the elders...
It seems I will continue to fade...s adly though my best man at my wedding, my best friend is asking what is going on with me...I'm itching to tell him and have played out my conversation to him in my head a million times over...people think I'm depressed which is just the opposite of what I am...
Is there any danger in telling my friend and even if he went to the elders (he's in another hall) then I can deny it and pledge my loyalty...
It's funny...when I got the truth I went mental zealous and preached everywhere...now that I know TTATT I feel EXACTLY the same! -
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Can this logic be refuted?
by notsurewheretogo ini was an elder until march 2012 until i resigned.
i then stopped going to meetings in october 2012 and have enjoyed 9 months of freedom that i have found to be jouful!
i loved learning ttatt and sites like this and jwfacts.com have been excellent.. i told the elders that i needed a break and that they should not contact me unless it was a social visit and true to their word they have done that.
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notsurewheretogo
@pixel...I was an elder for 6 years...did a lot but never had anyone at all question the truth like the scenario I painted...I never had to refute that kind of logic and there are no guidelines on how to reply barring seeing if they have read apostate material or find out why they stopped viewing it as the truth, are they weak? Are they missing meetings etc?
I think you will find elders do not have answers to everything, they may have different answers and the elders manual lacks a lot as it can't cover every scenario...
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90
Can this logic be refuted?
by notsurewheretogo ini was an elder until march 2012 until i resigned.
i then stopped going to meetings in october 2012 and have enjoyed 9 months of freedom that i have found to be jouful!
i loved learning ttatt and sites like this and jwfacts.com have been excellent.. i told the elders that i needed a break and that they should not contact me unless it was a social visit and true to their word they have done that.
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notsurewheretogo
I'm amazed at all the responses and they all the say the same thing...which is telling.
Remember I have done 18 months of research, read "Crisis of Conscience", "Captives to a Concept"...many Steve Hussain and Richard Dawkins books...I know, as a former elder, what elders must do...but yet again I served for many years with this body...I have a good relationship with them all...and whilst all the books and experiences label "elders" the same the way this is not true...many on the body are sincere men who like me just want to know the truth about things...
What about playing Devil's Advocate? Like I could say that I have a friend who has this view but as for me I'm a believer etc? That way they get the point but I still pledge my loyalty to them...
It does seem though that I wil say nothing...
I'll need to clarify that it was 1967 that transplants were a nono and 1980 it was reversed....thanks Donny.
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90
Can this logic be refuted?
by notsurewheretogo ini was an elder until march 2012 until i resigned.
i then stopped going to meetings in october 2012 and have enjoyed 9 months of freedom that i have found to be jouful!
i loved learning ttatt and sites like this and jwfacts.com have been excellent.. i told the elders that i needed a break and that they should not contact me unless it was a social visit and true to their word they have done that.
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notsurewheretogo
I was an elder until March 2012 until I resigned. I then stopped going to meetings in October 2012 and have enjoyed 9 months of freedom that I have found to be jouful! I loved learning TTATT and sites like this and jwfacts.com have been excellent.
I told the elders that I needed a break and that they should not contact me unless it was a social visit and true to their word they have done that. It will be nearly a year soon that I faded and I expect a visit soon.
I don't want to disassociate or be disfellowshipped for one reason. I have 3 kids and their grandparents, who are still in the truth, play an important role in their lives. My wife, who is still in but does not have great health relies on her parents to help out a lot. To lose this would be a nightmare, that is the only reason why I have not officially packed in this wacko religion.
But I do want to explain the situation to the elders.
I have a folder full of notes made from my research, all binded in a logical manner in various topics on things I disagree with, like blood, the cross, 1914, 607 BCE etc but it would be pointless to show this to an elder and it would lead to me being an apostate.
I am thinking about presenting this situation and logic, see what you think. I want to say to the elders that if they can resolve this situation that I am about to mention then we can go from there.
My logical situation is this.
Prior to the 1960's the Governing Body said that anyone who had an organ transplant should be disfellowshipped due to the fact that it was consumption of human flesh (cannibalism) and that you absorbed the traits of the person who donated the organ.
The fact that you were to be disfellowshipped shows that the Governing Body deemed it that this doctrine or requirement was essential to please Jehovah and have a relationship with Him.
Sometime in the 1960's, 1962 I think it was the Govering Body changed this to say it was not a disfellowshipping matter, you did not absorb the traits of the person and it was not cannibalism. It was now a conscience matter.
So my question to the elders that I want a satisifactory answer to is the doctrine to disfellowship based on cannablism of an organ transplant, did that have Holy Spirit approval?
Did the Governing Body get blessed when they released that doctrine? If the elders say yes then how did the Holy Spirit get it wrong that would actually cost a Witness to lose their life if they needed an organ transplant?
If the Holy Spirit did not bless that doctrine but later corrected the Governing Body then that means the Governing Body can release doctrines that are not blessed by Holy Spirit and can have life damaging consequences.
If Holy Spirit got it wrong and actually taught a false doctrine then I want nothing to do with God, if Holy Spirit corrected the Govering Body then the Governing Body can release doctrines that are not blessed by Holy Spirit (avoiding use inspired) and thus I want nothing more to do with a religion that does this.
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My question to users on this forum are these:
- Are my facts correct? (I don't have the WT references on hand but will do)
- Can any JW or the elders refute my logic so as to continue the lie that the Governing Body are the Channel of God?
- What would they come back at me with?
I understand Proverbs 4:18 that they will use to say the light gets brighter but surely they can't use that in this case as the light that the Holy Spirit released initially is wrong and would have cost lives.
I see my logic that has no answer, either Holy Spirit teaches us wrong things or the men teach us wrong things...it's one or the other...is that right? Is there any answer that would negate my logic?
Because if they can't answer or resolve this situation then there is no point in going into anything else...
Some feedback would be welcome!
Prior to 1960's if you needed an organ tranplant to live and you wanted to be faithful to Jehovah you had to die.
After the 1960's if you needed an organ tranplant to live and you wanted to be faithful to Jehovah you could choose to have the transplant, live and be faithful.
The question is, the teaching prior to 1960's...who got it wrong? The men or the Holy Spirit...my logic dictates it doesn't matter as either answer shows you can't trust your life in this religion.
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Blood, what is the spirit behind the law?
by CookieMonster induring the years when i was an active jw i never questioned the ban on blood transfusion.
i have been inactive now for a number of years and even during those early years i reasoned i will never accept a blood transfusion.
however, thinking about it with an open mind, i question the current teaching of jw's on banning blood transfusion on any account even if it means saving a life.
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notsurewheretogo
Blood represents life or is a symbol of life...we must respect life...I get that...but am I to preserve the Creator's view on blood at the cost of my life?
When Life is greater than blood? It doesn't make sense, why would I preserve the view on something that symbolizes the very thing I have to give up?
I am married...I have a wedding ring...my wedding ring symbolizes my marriage...would I give up my wedding ring to protect and save my marriage?
Of course...
Would I give up my marriage to save my wedding ring when my wedding ring symbolizes my marriage in the first place?
Of course not...so how can a God expect me to preserve His view on blood at the cost of my life when blood is the only the symbol of life? The symbol of something cannot outweigh the thing it represents.
What about the Jewish principle of Pikuach Nefesh? Where any law can be discarded to preseve one's life...surely God would be ok with taking blood to preseve my life based on that Jewish custom?
The WT's views on blood are easily proved false with just logic...
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Rumor: April 3, 2015 start of Great Tribulation?
by Londo111 inon another forum, somebody mentioned that there is a growing belief with those high up in watchtower hierarchy that the great tribulation will begin april 3, 2015. evidently, one has to check the skycharts for that date and compare with 33 ceand also compare with the history of jws for past 40, 80, 120 years.
dont ask me to verify the rumor...these things come and go.
im sure lots of people in hq believe all sorts of things.. .
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notsurewheretogo
This is nonsense...the GB will never again set dates...they just said so themselves in their half-hearted apology a few issues back...
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The Elusive and Shy creator god.---
by prologos inis there only a 50 / 50 chance that there is a ceator or.
assuming that there is one, and looking at it all,- it is hard to imagine that there is not,.
particularly if you tried all your life to make stuff work.
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notsurewheretogo
I think the point the OP was trying to make was that if there is a God then we would have known about it by now...by using the same logic for the existence of UFO's or Ghosts (in this modern age there is not one single encounter, one single photograph or single movie clip that proves they exist which is amazing considering the mobile devices in the world that are cameras) anyone logically minded comes to the conclusion that there is no God simply because there has been zero evidence to suggest there is one.
IF there was one then surely he would want to help mankind in some way and thus reveal himself...
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How Do you Solve A Problem Like Maria (or more importantly 1914)
by wizzstick inso how will they solve it?.
having researched the whole 607bce thing, it's clear that it's utter nonsense.
for example, the house of egibi transaction records closes the door on any questions about the reign of kings of this time.
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notsurewheretogo
Or it's all nonsense...all of it...in that black book...