Posts by Skeptic

8

Have any successully faded away?

by lookingnow22 in

jw
friends

i would be interested in hearing from any of you that have successfully "faded away" from the wbts.

i realize that there is no easy way to leave because of the way that the jw's will treat me.

mainly, i am concerned with my family.

Skeptic

lookingnow22,

AF's advice, as usual, is great.

I have successfully faded away, but even then there is a cost. Some of my JW relatives refuse to talk to me - they found out about my website, and that I help JWs leave; that was the last straw for them.

Most of my JW relatives will talk to me, but just a bare minimum to be polite. My niece does not shun me, but will not talk to me about the JW religion at all. That is fine with me; I have little desire to push what I know on my JW friends and family.

In Canada, especially in the Ottawa area, elders leave you alone if you leave quietly. There has been much bad publicity about DFing in the past in Ottawa.

If you decide to fade away, consider not DAing yourself or getting DFed. At least by your own actions. Many who wanted to "stand up for their convictions" later regretted it when their family shunned them.

Elders may call and ask you if you think the Society represents the true religion. LIE and say yes to this question. In my case, I told the elders that "I am basically an atheist, so the question of which religion is the true religion is a moot point. So, sure, I will say the JWs are the true religion. If you want, I will also say the Catholic Church is the true religion. If there is no God, then there is no sense in discussing which religion is true." That answer may not satisfy most elders.

In my case, I am lucky. One of the elders knew I was an atheist, and that I was no threat. He wanted me not to be DFed, so the elders classified me as having "grave doubts". I was not disciplined at all. At that time I was not going in field service or going to meetings.

My first wife's JW in-laws talked to me normally. When my JW sister-in-law tried to shun me, I just said, "I have not been DFed. You are committing no sin by talking to me." After that, she treated me normally; she has always liked me, and I think she did not really want to shun me. Ironically, it is my brother who has shunned me.

Richard

21

Homosexuals and Evolution

by patio34 in

on monday past, the la times health section had an article on homosexuality, especially the traits visible in young toddlers.

it also delved into possible causes of homosexuality and the latest research and theories.. there was an interesting comment in the article something like "it's a peculiarity in evolution that homosexuality occurs because it precludes procreation.

" in evolution, whoever produces the most offspring are the ones who pass on their genes.

Skeptic

"How did it survive the natural selection process of not leaving offspring?"

I read that evolutionists believe that homosexuality had/has a survival advantage for the human race as a whole. The male was usually the hunter, and men hunted in groups. Homosexuality helped bond some of these groups together, and so these men worked more effectively together as a unit. Hence, there was a survival advantage to homosexuality. Hence, more of the groups that contained homosexuals survived than those who did not.

If memory serves me correctly, the Romans encourages homosexuality in their armies. This made the men more united and they fought much better as a unit in battle.

Also, do not forget that homosexuals will have children simply because they want kids. Also, many times a homosexual used to marry and have children to hide their sexual orientation from a society that would condemn them.

Also, if homosexuality is "caused" by recessive genes the recessive genes could be passed for generations before being apparent.

Also, if homosexuality is "caused" by a combinations of genes, these genes may be passed on to succeeding generations because they provide other advantages; only when a certain combination is matched up may homosexuality become apparent.

Also, genetic variation in humans is here to stay. We have gotten so good at surviving that very little is killing us off. Hence, evolution in humans has slowed down. Hence, homosexuals are even less likely today to be "filtered out" by evolution.

I personally think that sexual orientation not just "heterosexual" or "homosexual". I suspect individuals fall into ranges, from very heterosexual to bisexual to very homosexual. I suspect that many individuals find the same sex sexually attractive, but not enough to actually pursue such desires. I know homophobes whom I strongly suspect are gay. I have seen them get quite sexually excited thinking of a member of the same sex, then suddenly "hide" their reaction. And, no, I do not believe that all homophobes are secretly homosexual and ashamed of it.

Lastly, I have written the above in a hurry. If my wording is wrong or not PC, please accept my humble apologizes. No insult or slight against homosexuals is meant. Those of you who from H2O know my views on homosexuality and that I am not anti-gay.

Richard

55

Demons / Urban Legends! Which Is It????

by Big Jim in

jw
friends

has anyone on this board ever experienced contact with demons?.

i have heard demons talked about for years, however i have never known anyone that has had any real experiences with them, i have only heard storys.. .

(some quotes).

Skeptic

doubtingsister,

Your experiences seem to be because of a sleep state. Some people will see/hear/feel weird things when they are going to sleep or waking up. When the brain is in a state between sleeping and waking, you can see and hear things.

In Canada, we have "The Hag of Newfoundland". In a sleep state, a person "wakes" to find an old hag sitting on his chest, choking him. Others see or hear aliens, demons, etc.

These experiences are completely real to the person who gets them. They will swear the experience is real.

It seems to happen most often when someone is sleeping on their back. No one knows why. The best "solution" is to sleep on your side, i.e., do not sleep on your back.

The next best solution is to know that the experiences are not real, though they are often very frightening and seem so real. There is also nothing wrong with a person who has these experiences. This is a perfectly normal brain function, and more people have it than you think.

Apparently, the choking sensation, or the feeling that someone is pressing on their chest is also related to the muscle paralysis we have during sleep (this keeps us from falling out of bed). When a person is in this sleep state between sleeping and waking, the muscles may be in their semi-paralysed state.

Hope this provides some comfort.

Skeptic magazine and Skeptical Inquirer magazine often have articles on this.

Richard

15

What Was I Thinking?

by riz in

jw
friends

one of my regrets about my 20 year stint of jw-dom is that i got rid of a lot of my 'questionable' music.

i have always loved all kinds of music, and i've been an avid collector for as long as i can remember.. some of the recordings i had i will probably never see again.

i deeply regret my decision to get rid of some of my favorite items.

Skeptic

I know what you mean. The thing I regret throwing out as a JW was a bookcase full of Bibles. I used to collect different translations and some of them are irreplacable. Sigh. I had about 30 different translations.

Richard

62

The Natural Law fallacy and Homosexuality

by JanH in

jw
friends

there is a fallacy of logic that is so common that few people realize that it is, indeed, a fallacy of logic: the fallacy by appeal to nature.. one argument against homosexuality goes something like this:.

the natural use of the reproductive organs is obviously to make children.

using these organs in a way that cannot produce children is unnatural and thus ethically wrong.. .

Skeptic

Jan,

Excellent points. I still remember (and thank you) for private emails correcting me about my use of this fallacy.

Emyrose,

>But aren't all ethics or moral values a matter of preferences rather than logical conclusions?

Not always. Pedophilia causes great harm to children, so logically we can conclude that pedophilia is unethical and immoral. The same can be said about incest, genocide, etc.

Some moral values such as condemning fornication may have made sense in the past; it prevented single women from having to raise a child. However, today with birth control, suitable protection, and women's rights, it makes little sense to completely condemn fornication today. I am not saying everyone should fornicate, just that a blanket condemnation does not make sense.

Adultery is another "sin" that logically cannot be made a sin under all circumstances.

>Thus, we could never condemn homosexuality with logical arguments.

True. I have yet to see a good argument against homosexuality.

Richard

30

HOMOSEXUAL CLERGY

by MacHislopp in

we have never read " officially " about homosexual problems at the.

bethel in new york , but can often read something that the wts wrote .

abouth other religions: .

Skeptic

logical,

http://songweaver.com/info/bonobos.html, the section titled, "Love, Not War" shows that "God" did build homosexuality into animals. Bonobos often engage in homosexual activity. Interestingly, bonobos and humans have 98% of their genetic code in common.

So, God cannot consider homosexuality to be wrong. He created animals that practice it.

Richard

7

Things that did not make sense when I was active.

by Skeptic in

jw
friends

inspired by englishman's post, i decided to list a few things that i disagreed with as a jw.. 1) jacob lied.. i disagreed with the wtbs on this even before i was baptised.

it is pretty obvious.

the elders agreed to baptise me if i kept my mouth shut about it.. 2) that jehovah is a loving and just god.. hitler killed 6 million jews and is considered to be one of the most evil men in history.

Skeptic

JW72,

Thanks! I tried to stick to only questions I had when still loyal to the JWs. Like you, I have more...

7

Things that did not make sense when I was active.

by Skeptic in

jw
friends

inspired by englishman's post, i decided to list a few things that i disagreed with as a jw.. 1) jacob lied.. i disagreed with the wtbs on this even before i was baptised.

it is pretty obvious.

the elders agreed to baptise me if i kept my mouth shut about it.. 2) that jehovah is a loving and just god.. hitler killed 6 million jews and is considered to be one of the most evil men in history.

Skeptic

Windrider is doing fine, although today she has a cold or flu. So she feels pretty bad today.

I just discovered this board today...I wondered where most of the H2O regulars went...so I will tell Windrider tonight about this place.

Richard

P.S. Thanks for telling us about this board, Focus!

4

Profile of JW Congs?

by ISP in

jw
friends

the future of the jw congregation does not look good.

it used to have a fair cross section of society......but those days are disappearing fast.

the jw lifestyle does not attract your average wholesome family anymore, i guess it never did but i imagine there were plenty of parents who thought they were doing the best for their kids by taking an interest in the wts in the 60s and 70s.

Skeptic

I am very glad I am out.

When I was a JW, I noticed that many JWs were very odd. My oldest son noticed it too, and told me that it was one reason he would not be a JW. Although I was a devoted JW at the time, I had to agree that a good number of the brothers and sister were very odd.

One thing I noticed that really bothered me was that most JWs had only really shallow interests. Conversations were about the JW faith or not at all. Most JWs had no interest or knowledge of current events, science, etc.

Most of the JWs I knew were boring. Not that I was so wonderful, but it would be nice to have a conversation about something other than the lastest WT article or field service experience.

I had worldly friends and they were very interesting. They knew about world affairs, science, literature, and appreciated the wonderful world around them.

Of course, there are exceptions; some JWs are well-read and have interests outside of WT land. But they are rate.

Richard

7

Things that did not make sense when I was active.

by Skeptic in

jw
friends

inspired by englishman's post, i decided to list a few things that i disagreed with as a jw.. 1) jacob lied.. i disagreed with the wtbs on this even before i was baptised.

it is pretty obvious.

the elders agreed to baptise me if i kept my mouth shut about it.. 2) that jehovah is a loving and just god.. hitler killed 6 million jews and is considered to be one of the most evil men in history.

Skeptic

Inspired by Englishman's post, I decided to list a few things that I disagreed with as a JW.

1) Jacob lied.
I disagreed with the WTBS on this even before I was baptised. It is pretty obvious. The elders agreed to baptise me if I kept my mouth shut about it.

2) That Jehovah is a loving and just God.
Hitler killed 6 million Jews and is considered to be one of the most evil men in history. Jehovah plans on killing 6 BILLION people and is considered to be very loving?? That sounds pretty sick to me.

3) The publisher to population ratio in India used to be something like 1:1 million. Yet, in "a very short time" Jah is going to kill all the Hindus in India who never heard of JWs. And they won't get a resurrection because everyone killed in Armageddon do not get a resurrection.

4) The polar bear efficient method of getting heat to its body (its fur acts like a fiber optic cable, according to the Awake! article) is an example of Jah using brilliant design. But, JWs believe that all of the earth was slightly tropical when the earth, man, etc. was made. Since Jah intended for all the earth to stay that way, why design the polar bear for a cold climate?

5) All genetic diseases, different races, hair colors, eye colors, etc. came after Adam and Eve; i.e., in the last six thousand years. That is a rate of change that far exceeds anything evolution would need.

6) Jah cares enough about humans to make our tongues various shapes; it is in our genes. Yet, he designs the prostate so men can easily get cancer.

6) Being involved in politics. Being a mayor or a congressman is morally wrong. So who runs the country and cities until Jah gets around to making the earth a paradise. We would have choas without people to run our cities. And if Jah appointed all these "superior authorities", then we are saying that he appointed people to sin.

7) Satan. Satan is just too convenient. Why would anyone spend their whole life making an entire planet misersble? If I had a short time to live, I would try to enjoy it, try to help others.

The concept of an all-powerful, completely evil person is just too mythological for me.

8) That people from different cultures and religions than the JWs must die in Armageddon. How about the sincere ones who are genuinely fooled by "false religion"?

9) How about the householders who think we are just salesmen? Do they deserve to die in the big A?

10) Why did God give us artistic interests, scientific interests, etc., and then require us to spend every possible minute at meetings or in field service?

11) Why is the end always coming? If God knows when it is, tell us a few years in advance, not lifetimes in advance. Organize the preaching world accordingly. That way, we can balance a normal life with kingdom needs. Crying wolf constantly puts people to sleep and does not keep them alert.

12) Why get the same repetitious information at the meetings? i quit going to assemblies because I knew what the speaker was going to say before he said it. I could give most talks at assemblies from memory.

13) The Society's apology over 1975 was so wimpy, I was ashamed to call myself one of Jehovah's Witnesses when I heard it.

14) The JW teaching that premarital sex is wrong. You save yourself for marriage, then find that you and your spouse are completely incompatible in bed. A recipe for a failed marriage.

15) The JW teaching that adultery is always wrong. What about those who save themselves for marriage and then have their spouse cut them off of sex for 15 years for no reason and deceive them by saying they have a medical problem? Yet under JW rules there is no masturbation, no adultery, etc. A recipe for a very bad marriage.

Note that I am not saying that adultery is never wrong.

16) The JW rules about remarriage. Your spouse beats you physically, so you decide to get a divorce. Now, YOU cannot remarry until you or your spouse "sins". Isn't the wrong person being punished?

BTW, the "cure" for this is to get some sex, then "repent".

17) NT Bible quotes that don't quite match the OT original. Prophecies about Jesus fit this "a young woman will give birth to a baby" becomes "a virgin will give birth to a child" (I paraphrased). If Holy Spirit guided both writers, then could not Holy Spirit get the quotes right?

Richard