For these other method I would suggest looking up every clause (& its context) that mentions salvation & be sure to take note of the use of "all" & "everyone" in some of them - the statements MUST harmonise and if they don't, the interpreter is in error (while it is not nessacary to understand Hebrew or Greek to read the bible, I would make a very strong argument for researching culture, time period and linguistical uses of certain words)
even in English, how often do we use "all" or "everyone" and it is absolute (literal)? I can think of very few reasons/ contexts where this is truly the case
again I am NOT going to argue, you asked for an example you got one, questions I'm more than happy to answer (with in reason) But you can also research this online (most of the time a simple google search, with first or second result) very easily in contrast with other subjects where its very hard not to get just one side of teh argument
Blotty
JoinedPosts by Blotty
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29
Jesus Never Limited His Promies to 144K
by Sea Breeze inwhat were we thinking?
mat_10:32 whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will i confess also before my father which is in heaven.. mat_10:33 but whosoever shall deny me before men, him will i also deny before my father which is in heaven.. mat_12:50 for whosoever shall do the will of my father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.. mat_16:25 for whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.. mat_18:4 whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.. mar_10:15 verily i say unto you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of god as a little child, he shall not enter therein.. luk 6:47,48 whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, i will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man .
which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock.
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Blotty
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29
Jesus Never Limited His Promies to 144K
by Sea Breeze inwhat were we thinking?
mat_10:32 whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will i confess also before my father which is in heaven.. mat_10:33 but whosoever shall deny me before men, him will i also deny before my father which is in heaven.. mat_12:50 for whosoever shall do the will of my father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.. mat_16:25 for whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.. mat_18:4 whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.. mar_10:15 verily i say unto you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of god as a little child, he shall not enter therein.. luk 6:47,48 whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, i will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man .
which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock.
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Blotty
"Can you provide an examp[l]e?" (error corrected for clarity sake)
Just off the top of my head - there are many others provided by others on this website When dealing with similar clauses
The most "famous" one is done by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:27, 28
However other examples includeColossians 1:20 - reconcile to himself "All things" - does this include Satan? no (thats self evident from else where, where the bible says he will be destroyed), does it include animals? not that I'm aware of
scholars comments:
Of particular signifigance to your topic is:“The words ‘world’ and ‘all’ are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that ‘all’ means all persons, taken individually.”
(Particular Redemption, A Sermon, No. 181, 28 Feb 1858.)
Others not so related but still apply:“ἄλλος [állos] is sometimes omitted where we would add ‘other.’”
(A Greek Grammar of the New Testament, Blass & Debrunner, 1961 wrote (p.160))
“ellipsis: “In the broad sense applies to any idea which is not fully expressed grammatically andleaves it to the hearer or reader to supply the omission because it is self-evident.”
(A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, University of Chicago Press, 1961, section 479, p. 253. Trans. by R. W. Funk)“ellipses”: “The omission of the notion ‘other, whatever’...is specifically Greek.”
(A Greek Grammar of the New Testament Blass, Debrunner, Funk 1961, p. 254)
"But the WT says that only 144K are justified (declared righteous). In WT theology, how does those who are not declaed righteous saved from wrath?
The WT has never addressed this question; which is the most important question a person can ask a JW."
answer: Im not going into this in detail as information on this subject in depth is available elsewhere online (& the bible makes it self evident, when you understand certain elements of how it exaggerates)
Who said you had to be declared righteous to be saved from his wrath? I can think of another method in which ones can be saved from Gods wrath.. -
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An interesting Blog post
by Blotty inthis is quite an interesting blog post - somethings i find to be "ehh" and some with fundamentally flawed arguments.
but an interesting point of view and worth looking into (not sure if this person is a jw):https://jimspace3000.blogspot.com/2021/01/answers-to-10-questions-answers.html.
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Blotty
Personally I wouldn't go as far as "falsehood" They are correct in quite a few regards.. Im just not pointing out what I think is right or wrong as I want to remain neutral on most subjects (or as neutral as I can)
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An interesting Blog post
by Blotty inthis is quite an interesting blog post - somethings i find to be "ehh" and some with fundamentally flawed arguments.
but an interesting point of view and worth looking into (not sure if this person is a jw):https://jimspace3000.blogspot.com/2021/01/answers-to-10-questions-answers.html.
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Blotty
This is quite an interesting blog post - somethings I find to be "ehh" and some with fundamentally flawed arguments. But an interesting point of view and worth looking into (not sure if this person is a JW):
https://jimspace3000.blogspot.com/2021/01/answers-to-10-questions-answers.html -
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Jesus Never Limited His Promies to 144K
by Sea Breeze inwhat were we thinking?
mat_10:32 whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will i confess also before my father which is in heaven.. mat_10:33 but whosoever shall deny me before men, him will i also deny before my father which is in heaven.. mat_12:50 for whosoever shall do the will of my father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.. mat_16:25 for whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.. mat_18:4 whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.. mar_10:15 verily i say unto you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of god as a little child, he shall not enter therein.. luk 6:47,48 whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, i will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man .
which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock.
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Blotty
You forget to factor in the detail that alot of what's written in the bible is hyperbole & deeply exaggerated. Exceptions are implied in "all" or "everyone"
The WT position on the 144K is not so easily disproven (I speak from limited experience on the subject, but experience non the less)
I agree with alot of scholars (including Edgar Foster) on the occurrence in Rev likely being literal due to the parallel & other numbers in the same chapter let alone the rest of Revelation.
Just my input, I'm not going to argue, If your interested you will do the research yourself.. -
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My favorite Cooking Pot
by Wonderment inalthough cooking pots are not directly "religious" subject, perhaps not many will deny that a happy belly can lead to wholesome religious thoughts and peaceful spiritual discussions.. that said, through the years i have tried most major brands of cooking pots - all the way from all-clad to cast-iron skilets - including some with the most extraordinary claims in between.. however, the one we have used the most in our kitchen is one brand from denmark, specifically, the 5 quart pot called "scanpan.
" it is now approaching 40 years of daily use, and it has held-up surprisingly well.
the handles are as tight as day one when we bought it.
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Blotty
Wonderment I would like to address an apology to you for my previous comment in this thread, I did not make my thought pattern clear in that comment and multiple bad things could be taken from that comment, So if any offence was taken I apologise that was not the intent or my desire.
I was looking back on a few convo's Iv had and saw this comment and thought it sounds quite bad. -
169
Are the statistics out yet?
by slimboyfat inisn’t it about time they released the report for the service year?
or have they stopped publishing it?
did they released selected figures at the annual meeting as they usually do, such as the memorial attendance or record number of pioneers?
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Blotty
Just my opinion an 2 cents worth
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169
Are the statistics out yet?
by slimboyfat inisn’t it about time they released the report for the service year?
or have they stopped publishing it?
did they released selected figures at the annual meeting as they usually do, such as the memorial attendance or record number of pioneers?
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Blotty
Slim, The watchtower gets a lot of hate, in my opinion is actually woefully unjustified - especially if it comes from other so called "Christians" (Who claim to abide by the bible) Have they made mistakes? yes Have other religions? yes
Just look at almost any other religion and do some digging, there's dirty laundry whether one admits it or not..
People openly acknowledge they want to see the Watchtower fail and just blindly jump on a hate bandwagon (for "Christians" this is worse as where in the bible does it say be nasty to "false religion" or jump on hate bandwagons? - I know of no such scripture )
So really your arguing a point that is never going to get through to some (ironic coming from me, Ik) Who just blindly want to hate and not acknowledge any good in an organisation that has actually done some insane things the Bible in 1000 languages (How many other places have done that?) for starters.. People are going to make surface level arguments to try and playdown or discredit them just because they don't like them for one reason or another -
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Who raised Jesus from the dead?
by Blotty ini have seen arguments surrounding jesus' resurrection being proof of "the trinity" - now while in some cases it's a good argument the evidence for it remains very weak.
(bible quotes are from the nwt but other bibles are referenced, use whichever you please) this following version of it is a good example.. "the bible indicates that all [persons] of the trinity was involved in jesus’ resurrection.
galatians[1:1] says that the father raised jesus from the dead.
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Blotty
There is some "satire" in there yes (obviously some of that is deeply exaggerated and unrealistic), but the arguments in themselves (concept of the argument) I'm quite serious about.
"so atheists obviously have no burden of proof to ‘disprove Jesus’ existence’." - ones who say he didn't have a multitude of scholars to debate on this subject.. I personally believe it for many reasons. (Iv been alot in my atheism -> trinitarian -> "JW"(not formally one, but same beliefs, call that what you want), I have changed my opinion a lot is what I'm saying )Jesus didn't have kids (as far as we are aware, most likely not - nothing is explicitly mentioned tho) but he did have siblings (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brothers_of_Jesus#:~:text=The%20brothers%20of%20Jesus%20or,mentioned%20in%20Mark%20and%20Matthew.), who likely did have kids (again not explicit but it wouldn't make sense for them, compared to Jesus). yes the existence argument is actually pathetic in itself. but then many points must be raised - The bible doesn't provide the answer to everything
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Who raised Jesus from the dead?
by Blotty ini have seen arguments surrounding jesus' resurrection being proof of "the trinity" - now while in some cases it's a good argument the evidence for it remains very weak.
(bible quotes are from the nwt but other bibles are referenced, use whichever you please) this following version of it is a good example.. "the bible indicates that all [persons] of the trinity was involved in jesus’ resurrection.
galatians[1:1] says that the father raised jesus from the dead.
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Blotty
Plenty of strawman arguments going on
- burden of proof lies on atheist's to disprove majority of scholars on Jesus never existing
the "never left any writings argument" is extremely weak
My great grandmother never left any writings (nothing for that matter) are you going to dispute she existed?
and writings don't really prove someone existed any how.. (know the purpose of the messiah before saying about what he should and should not of done.)
Different gospel writers place emphasis on different things - It is possible that there were 4 woman who discovered Jesus' tomb empty, however some only emphasizing 2 (still doesn't mean to say the other 2 didn't exist or were not present) John's account is the challenge, but depending on his writing time might have thought some points moot due to them possibly being so well know. Greek writers were well known not finish thoughts and omit details that were self explanatory.
- Trinity doesn't work due to Greek antecedents (Grammatical rules// see Wallace's paper)
Those who say Jesus did raise himself. not according to A.T Robertson