Posts by Blotty

171

Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat in

in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

Blotty

[if you do not answer the above, I will simply repaste in to every responce from now on]

and Where is my dictionary citaiton? I now know 100% that was a fake dicitonary made up by you or one of your friends - otherwise you would be more than happy to provide a title to it.. There is no other reason you wouldnt provide - anyone else on this website would - hence they are more credible than you.

"Aquila, conversely, often emphasized literalism." - EXACTLY AS BRITTANICA STATED, hence Aquilas slavishly literal (from now on: Hyper literal) translation - Aquila translates the literal word NOT its intended meaning.. That's up to the readers to figure out (BEST translations method IMO, unless its an idoim that makes no sense in the target language)

This is why he preferred the Greek equivalent to QNH's possessed meaning, Whereas the LXX preferred "Ektisen" in this case and Gen 14:19,22.

" While David is called the “firstborn” (Psalm 89:27), this denotes his preeminence among kings, not a literal first in temporal order." - Was Saul related (direct blood relative) to David or in the same geneological line? No he was not... so we can dismiss Saul because David was temporally first in the sense his line was the choosen ("begotten") messianic line. Consequently he is the first of that line to be selected.

also see: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Samuel%207%3A12-16&version=NIV

Saul is also invalid because he was removed by God - David was the First King "placed" by God (This is one of the two possible interpretations)

"the cases of Ephraim (Jeremiah 31:9) and Israel (Exodus 4:22), neither of whom were literally firstborn." - Firstborn has a temporal sense in BOTH cases - Deaut 32 explains why Isreal was Gods "Firstborn" its the nation God "adopted" first. Ephraim has TWO possible explanations because there is also a nation called 2 perons or things called by that name.

"This argument is well-supported in biblical scholarship." - cite a REPUTABLE source please.. not one your theolgoically motivated friends

"I was correct in addressing the non-literal use of “firstborn.”" - you have addressed that over 100 times , Im not as dense as you seem to be... I dont need 5 million explanations of the same thing

" Therefore, reliance on cognate languages does not detract from my point that qanah can mean “possess” in Proverbs 8." - but even so, The NET (ONe among many sources) and Burney himself state that "created" is the most likely intended meaning due to

- the verbs used in 23 -25

- Gen 14:19, 20, Deut 32:6 etc - Where they all must mean "created"

- LXX, syriac translations

and many other points

"This is a misunderstanding of the argument. Eve’s use of qanah does not imply “creation out of nothing” but rather acknowledges God’s assistance in her ability to bear Cain." - right back at you "This is a misunderstanding of the argument." - you did not read my argument at all.

"but my approach here is exegetical, focusing on the text’s linguistic and historical context." - if this were true, you would consider more evidence than your theologically motivated friends, the church fathers and your selective use of philosophical terms to suit your agenda - becuae I can do the same thing with passages like Col 2:9 and others to suit mine

171

Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat in

in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

Blotty

"A respectful and reasoned dialogue about different interpretations could allow both parties to explore the text more deeply." - learn what respect means.... and change your attitude then I may show you respect... until then, not happening....

> If someone asks you to atop posting long posts and you continue doing so - is that showing respect?
> Is flooding WItness blogs with garbage when they ask you not too repect?
> is posting user names such as "hahahaha" or "lolololol" respect?

171

Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat in

in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

Blotty

Ever heard the saying "sayng alot while saying very little" - that's what I see coming from you... alot of garbage theological talk - not actual dialogue.

"This response doesn’t engage with the main point about consistency in translation. When a term in Hebrew, such as qanah, has a range of meanings, we should expect ancient translators to reflect those nuances depending on context. " - actually it does, if you read you will see what I mean - just one of many examples for you: How did Aquila translate Gen 1:1?

Why is it different from the LXX? I can use the same argument..

" David was not the first person chosen or “begotten” by God, nor was he the first king." - in what world wasn't he the first King "begotten" by God (or: Chosen)? Who was chosen before David then?
and this still doesn't answer about David The KING still being PRE_EMINENT AMONG KINGS. (proving that Firstborn is always partitive)

if you cant figure out what I mean by "chosen" - please go back to school and learn context and antecedents,

"Ephraim’s designation as “firstborn” does not involve a literal birth order." - Where did I claim it did?I said there was a temporal explanation I NEVER said "birth"

"Hebrew thought often links possession, acquisition, and origination, but this does not equate to a straightforward act of creating ex nihilo." - either you are blind, illiterate or are just plain stupid (my vote is for the third one) FOR THE FINAL TIME I DO NOT BELEIVE CHRIST WAS CREATED "ex nihilo"

secondly deut 32:6 lxx
ταῦτα κυρίῳ ἀνταποδίδοτε οὕτω λαὸς μωρὸς καὶ οὐχὶ σοφός

οὐκ αὐτὸς οὗτός σου πατὴρ ἐκτήσατό σε καὶ ἐποίησέν σε καὶ ἔκτισέν σε

"Burney’s reliance on cognate languages (e.g., Aramaic, Arabic)" - says the person who literally hasn't read Burneys article... else they would know that their are Hebrew texts that use QNH in texts that can ONLY MEAN "CREATED"

" For example, Genesis 4:1 uses qanah when Eve says, "I have gotten (qanah) a man with the help of the Lord," referring to her child Cain as something she “acquired,” not “created” ex nihilo." - think you should go study human anatomy... Babies are technically "created"

"is not a matter of “theological motivation” but of careful exegesis. " - that's with others - with you it is literally theological motivation and desperation to prove a doctrine.... otherwise you wouldn't go spamming other websites that have ASKED you to not do such things... your no catholic, or atleast DO NOT hold to Christian values - your a troll

and "careful"? you? HAHAHHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHHAHAHAHa thats rich - if you were "careful" you wouldn't act the way you do.

you will have to do ALOT of convincing to get me to change my mind - your comments [specifically unfounded claims, incase thats wasnt clear] are a running joke.

171

Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat in

in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

Blotty

" it would conflict with other New Testament passages that present Jesus as eternal and uncreated (e.g., John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:2-3, Hebrews 1:5)." - ever consider you might be wrong on these passages?

no - your to theologically motivated to see reason, okay then

ill keep reasoning with actual logical humans and leave you theologically motivated lot out at sea..

171

Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat in

in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

Blotty

" If “created” were the definitive meaning, we would expect all ancient translations to agree on this point, which they do not." - this is so untrue its not even funny (unlike some of your other comments, which are sometimes hilariously wrong) There are numerous other variations of scripture where if it were as cut and dry as you are trying to make out they would all match as well.. I can cite at least 10 off the top of my head, that if one word was the definitive meaning we would expect all variations to agree..

"David is called “firstborn” not because he was literally the firstborn son or the first king, but because he holds a position of preeminence among kings. " - yes he WAS temporally first in some sense (I am not specifying it so maybe you will be honest for a change and share it) and he still IS NOT an exception to the kings he is firstborn over.

David was THE FIRST to be "BEGOTTEN" by God (in the sense he was the first in his line to be chosen as a descendant of the messiah...) - There is one other interpretation as well which also requires temporal priority.

"However, the significance of the Creed cannot be ignored in this discussion." - I can ignore whatever the hell I want thank you - and I choose to ignore it - it is unbiblical and full of untruths.. so you can stop citing it to me - thank you. I will ignore whatever I want in this discussion - including you.

"Ephraim is called the “firstborn” over Manasseh in Jeremiah 31:9, though Manasseh was born first. " - there are 2 possible explanations to this... both have a temporal meaning, and it still doesn't negate the one called firstborn "coming into existence" OR being part of the respective group. This example is useless to your agenda.

"This is why Israel, as a nation, is called God’s “firstborn” in Exodus 4:22, despite not being the first nation." - but Israel was still temporally first in the sense, it was the first nation "adopted" by God... and separated from the other nations in this regard. This example is also useless to your agenda

a better one for you would be "the firstborn of death" - but that is even a stretch because it is still part of its respective group.

"However, these sources, while helpful, do not prove that qanah definitively means “create” in Proverbs 8:22." - Why does one of them literally cite proverbs 8:22 for such a meaning?

you also said "It never definitively means "create" in any of its 85 uses in the Old Testament. " - this is a bold faced lie as it does definitively mean "create" in at least 2 instances - Deuteronomy 32:6 & Psalm 139:13 - proven further by the LXX
Deut 32:6 can ONLY mean "create" because of what its in apposition to it

Gen 4:1 "create" is a possible rendering as "possesion" and "creation" are very closely linked in Hebrew thought.

171

Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat in

in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

Blotty

" It never definitively means "create" in any of its 85 uses in the Old Testament. " - this is in conflict with many many scholars and is unfounded.. notice a common theme between ALL of these words - Something someone did NOT possess before.. never implies "already had"
God did not always have the heavens and earth

Eve did not always have her Child.

Just to cite a few:

"possessor - so Onkelos and Calvin; but koneh, from kanah, to erect, set up, hence found or create, means founder and creator (Gesenius), combines the meanings of κτίζειν and κτᾶσθαι (Keil), contains no indistinct allusion to the doctrine of Genesis 1:1 (Murphy), and is rendered ο{ς ἔκτισε (LXX.) and qui creavit (Vulgate) " - Pulpit

"Possessor.—Literally, creator, or framer. It is a poetical word, as are also those for “delivered” and “enemies.” The form of the blessing, moreover, is poetical, as it is arranged in parallel clauses." - Elliot

"possessor of heaven and earth] R.V. marg. maker. The word is poetical. It expresses the ideas of making, producing, creating, as in Deuteronomy 32:6, Psalm 139:13, Proverbs 8:22. It is more often used for “acquiring” (cf. Genesis 4:1), a sense which would not here be applicable. In Isaiah 1:3, it is found, as here, with the meaning of “owner.”" - Cambridge

"Possessor of heaven and earth — That is, rightful owner and sovereign Lord of all the creatures; because he made them." - Benson

need i Cite the hundreds more I have? - yep it totally never means created definitively in its 85 uses nope not at all... not once except in the other 2 instances cited by pulpit...

"does conflict with traditional Christian theology upheld by mainstream Christianity since the Nicene Creed, which distinguishes between "begotten, not made."" - so since the 4th century.... Which is where many manuscript variations come from - a creed which I don't care about... argument null and void in my eyes

"However, David was not the firstborn in his family nor the first king of Israel, so his designation as "firstborn" in Psalm 89:27 is about pre-eminence and authority, not chronological order" - again he is temporally first in some sense.. now are you going to be honest and cite the correct scripture or am I going too? He was temporally first in some sense - hence being called the firstborn...

being called Firstborn ALWAYS denotes a temporal factor in SOME form. and David is still a king.. NOT an exception to the group he is Firstborn of.

"establishing his lineage as the chosen royal line. This typological use of “firstborn” reflects an established biblical pattern where "firstborn" denotes rank and privilege rather than literal sequence." - is he not the first of this chosen line? since that specific line was chosen by God?

"the language and genre of Job differ significantly from Revelation." - So why does BDAG cite it as a grammatical paralell? BDAG NEVER comments on genre or anything it cites ALL instances where the word means the same thing.

" While you may not have used the term “apostate,” your arguments appear to align with Arian interpretations" - So I NEVER called christianity apostate....
& if you actaully pay attention to what I write you would realise I dont actaully adhere to Arian theology atall because I claim Logos was created from something (Like Eve from Adam) not from nothing (What Arians claim, allegedly - wouldn't be surprised if Atha lied tho)

171

Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat in

in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

Blotty

"Quote from HERE:" - who wrote this garbage? you? I believe Britannica over you any day.. Aquila's hyper literal translation style would obligate him to render the Hebrew word literally... not its actaul meaning.

"Origen also takes the unusual step of commenting on the LXX translation ektise, “created,” that the Hebrew has qanah, supporting the view that he also knew that create was a mistranslation in the LXX of his day." - Does it cite specifically where Origen comments on it? I got to page 3 and gave up (I'm not reading any more of that garbage)
Does Origen state it was a mistranslation? he comments on alot of Greek words

"You claim that mainstream Christianity is "apostate" when it claims that the Son was "begotten, not made"" - Where did I claim this - quote plz, Where did I call mainstream Christianity apostate?

"David was neither the firstborn in his family nor the first king of Israel" - gotcha! Was David temporally first in ANY sense? the answer: yes

"Some resources for you" - oh look you literally just proved my point about you being in many other places causing the same sort of rubbish.... a quick google search on these links shows you to be the same person..

& if you think a dictionary is all I have - your dreaming I have plenty more where that came from... thats only 1 thing thats in my favor

- my responce to this post is to be continued when i have more time-

171

Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat in

in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

Blotty

"However, Aquila and other early translators chose “possessed” to convey that Wisdom belonged to God, not as something that came into being later." - so your going to ignore brittanica? Who said Aquila's translation was "slavishly literal" Aquila did not CHOOSE "posessed" for the reason you are claiming - rather it was his TRANSLATION STYLE.

" it highlights the Father’s role as the source, but this does not make Jesus less than fully divine. In Matthew 1:22, the angel functions as a messenger, whereas Jesus is described in Hebrews as the One through whom the universe was made (Hebrews 1:2). These passages serve different theological purposes, and therefore they are not directly comparable." - I literally dont give a sh** about your theological agenda get that through your head for starters...
second you didn't answer my question
third - WHERE did I talk about Jesus' divinity and making him "less than fully divine"?

"While some commentaries, like Barnes’, may favor the interpretation of arche as “first created,” this is not a universally accepted interpretation." - While it is not universally accepted, notice BDAG cites Job 40:19 as a grammatical parallel so yes this is comparable... on LINGUISTICAL grounds you would have to prove they are comparable.

Hence BDAG lists it as PROBABLE.

" Psalm 89:27, for example, uses "firstborn" to refer to King David, saying, "I will appoint him to be my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth." Clearly, David was not literally the firstborn in his family, yet he is called "firstborn" as a title of authority and preeminence." - But his family has nothing to do with this, Where are they mentioned in the context? - He is "FIrstborn" of the kings of the earth, the second sentence elaborates on the meaning and he is still a king not an exception

"Engaging in ad hominem attacks or suggesting that one needs to “debate a master” to validate an argument misses the point of a fair and reasonable discussion based on Scripture and tradition." - I said YOUR Master was beaten by Greg Stafford - never said “debate a master” and Im only using your own words against you... suddenly I'm the bad guy?

"Debating Greg Stafford or any other apologist is not the point here" - you seem fine "picking on" people on this forum - But when it comes to actual Greek experts who have disproven your claims, you now say its not the point?

Stafford has already debunked your claims on Prov 8:22 regarding the double accusative and typology..

When Wisdom was made "The begining" of Gods ways is said in 23 -25 - negating the need for a temporal marker in 22

"Personal attacks detract from a productive discussion. The focus should be on scriptural interpretation and evidence, rather than labeling each other as "hypocrites" or "frauds.""-

1) I have asked multiple times for a dictionary citaion... provide it - if you were not lying about it, you should easily be able to provide a pdf version of it or a title for it

2) Do I need to quote you, less than a year ago to Me, Wonderment, Slimboy and other Jehovahs Witnesses on this website? Or you on e-homo religiosus' "collection of quotes" post? calling the WT our "Master" or "Boss" or commenting under usernames such as "HAHAHAHA" and "LOLOLOL" - I know that was you, I know about many places you have been, and people you have annoyed with your theological agenda.

How about I do that? this is rich coming from you...

171

Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat in

in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

Blotty

"The primary argument here is not about quoting you verbatim" - because you can't - You are a fraud
While it is not about quoting me verbatim - you are claiming I said something I never did, so please quote me verbatim where I claim what you accused me of - We can go no further into this discussion until you do so.

or admit I didn't say what you accused me of.

and the dictionary citation plz

"The Church Fathers, such as Athanasius, affirmed that the Son was eternally begotten, not “ex nihilo” created in time. " - Where do i claim Jesus was created “ex nihilo”? as I said to others I claim he was created (or begotten, same thing) I never said what from... I am more inclined to believe he was created from something.. and not “ex nihilo” - fun fact.

"The preference of Aquila and others for “possessed” highlights their understanding that qanah did not imply temporal creation" - Or it was simply they were hyper-literal translators as Britannica states.. that's probably the best interpretation.. & probably the most credible one (basically any answer other than yours is credible, even other trinitarians on this site)

It really begs the question why the LXX renders QNH as "Ektisen" 3 times when it would make sense in the context - yet the other times retains the "possessed" meaning. Going by Aquila's translation style he probably would have rendered Gen 14:19 literally - yet the Lxx didn't.

" Your comparison to other examples, like Solomon building the Temple, is not analogous because Hebrews explicitly credits Jesus as the Creator of the universe, not merely a facilitator or builder in a secondary sense." - But Solomon is credited with building the temple.. Solomon is literally said to have built the temple.. Its just self evident he didn't. hence the comparison

Is the Angels work in Matt 1:22 inferior to Gods?

Origen credits the Father as autotheos and as the creator.. not Logos

"The passive or active voice does not change the theological assertion that Jesus is the Creator." - do you even know how the voices in Greek work? I am sure you would argue based on the voice that the NWT renders John 17:3 wrong... get over yourself.

How can Christ be the source of creation? When the father is said to be the source of it?

Why is the passive voice used in combination with dia for an angel (Matt 1:22)? Where again the distinction between upo and dia is made.

" "archē" in Revelation 3:14 can be contextually and linguistically interpreted as referring to Jesus’ role as the origin or source of creation" - see Barnes commentary... he would disagree..

it DOES NOT denote authorship..

"Scholars widely interpret ktizo in Proverbs 8 as a poetic way of describing Wisdom’s role in creation rather than implying that Wisdom (or Christ) is a temporal creation." - citation please

Clifford, Fox, Burney etc all don't interpret it this way.

When did Time start then? was it "before all creation"?

So what does Proverbs need to say to say that Christ is created? poieo? you have already admitted these are synonymous...

If you think you are so good why not go and debate Greg Stafford? He Just destroyed your master where you get most of your arguments from..

164

How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?

by slimboyfat in

for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.

but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?

new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.

Blotty

"they use this language to describe beings that participate in divine attributes, without compromising the oneness of God." - would this not fall under "qualitative", I think you'll find it would

notice Jesus' quote from psalms has a plural noun before the verb