Posts by TonusOH

23

freedom of speech and loss of rights

by enoughisenough in

i was thinking about freedom of speech after watching a clip about the jw suing kevin mcfree.

they wanted to take away his freedom of speech.

but in thinking about it, that is the way of the organization, save they want to control thought as well.

TonusOH

I think the WTS is trying to use copyright law in these cases, where they are accusing people (like McFree) of using material without express permission. The law (at least in the USA) almost always sides with the person using the material unless the use meets certain criteria. What the WTS wants is to intimidate people into removing videos or documents without proceeding to a court of law. This works frequently because those people do not have the resources to fight back. When they do, the WTS usually loses the case and/or (as in the McFree case) drop it.

They also try to get personal info on the people uploading content if they think the person is an active JW (as McFree is, if I am not mistaken). Then they can disfellowship them. McFree's lawyer pointed out that the WTS is not interested in pursuing copyright claims as much as they are seeking personal info to punish those who speak out against them. Once they have the personal info, they usually do not pursue the copyright claims any further. This is, effectively, a misuse of the legal system.

29

Why Not Celebrate Christmas?

by Mum in

jw
friends

so, jw's don't celebrate christmas or other holidays.

as bill cetnar once said, there are two reasons for everything: the reason they tell you, and the real reason.

they will tell you it's because christmas is "pagan" and can lead to all sorts of licentious conduct (like drinking too much macallan scotch?)..

TonusOH

So much of the JW approach was shaped by Rutherford, IMO, who wanted to leave his mark on the organization. I think he spent a few years trying to further Russell's work. Then he seemed to realize that he was now in the driver's seat and could shape it as he pleased. As a result, it's difficult to figure out exactly why they decided that birthdays and holidays were taboo (but not wedding anniversaries or baby showers).

It makes God appear to be a person of very ill humor, a tyrant who gets upset when his children find a way to have some fun. "Celebrate the birthday of your savior with decorations and gift-exchanges? How dare you!!" He becomes a grumpy old man the minute you decide you want to enjoy a holiday.

50

Are the teachings of JW—consistent?

by Fisherman in

i would belief so but if you can point something out, it can be discussed.. i don’t mean what jw taught in the past that they later realized was not correct and amended.

—unless you think and can show something like that is relevant.. i’ve spoken to a lot of believers from different religions.

i don’t want to bash any religion here under this topic but their beliefs are inconsistent and their reasons are sophistry and made up and grounded on circular reasoning.

TonusOH

I think that anything to do with trying to predict the time of the end, or insinuate that it is close, goes against Christ's claims that no one but the father knows the day or the hour. It is also superfluous, since even JWs believe that you must remain faithful and steady right to the end. The notion that only those who qualify at the time of the destruction of the old system of things goes against the idea that one should be expecting the end at a specific time or within a specific time frame.

You are either serving God with sincerity, or marking off time until you can stop pretending. Would Jehovah really save someone who was doing the latter?

27

Watchtower Study : Jehovah Is Helping You To Succeed

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

the watchtower—study edition | january 2023. study article 3. jehovah is helping you to succeed.

how jehovah makes you successful.

13. does jehovah intervene in every situation we face?

TonusOH

"Jehovah let my child die of cancer, but He got a lot of people to show up as visitors! I mean, what are the chances that they would have done that without God nagging them? No one ever visits sick friends in the hospital! We are so blessed!"

I agree that this is not just JWs. But this particular example makes me cringe.

16

Our First Christmas Tree

by Queequeg in

early on, after we left jw land, my wife said to me, “i hope you don’t care, but i don’t ever see myself doing any christmas stuff.

i don’t really understand why some ex jws decide to do that crap.” we agreed that parties were a little different because of the social aspects, but other wise i didn’t care.

now… there’s a 16’ douglas fir with ornaments and lights in our living room.

TonusOH

I love the story!

But... a sixteen foot tree! Is it laying on its side?

11530

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars

by Newly Enlightened in

original reddit post (removed).

TonusOH

The case was overturned on appeal. As was pointed out, in many places you do not have an expectation of privacy when you are out in public. "Hidden camera" pranks, interviews and investigative reports are not uncommon in the USA and are rarely challenged in court because the law is on the side of the person filming in most of these cases. It's a fine line, a lot of these cases help to unmask some terrible people and behavior, but the flip side is the unnecessary and cruel humiliation of unsuspecting innocent people when a single moment defines their public persona.

If Evans does the interviews to demonstrate the approach that JWs are taught in regards to trying to reach people, or if it shows how sheltered their views and knowledge are, that can be very useful. If he's selecting clips to dishonestly promote a narrative, that can be destructive and dangerous, and is almost always unethical and wrong. I can't tell which it is, since I don't watch any of his videos anymore.

11530

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars

by Newly Enlightened in

original reddit post (removed).

TonusOH

I agree, pr0ner.

As for the canceled Zoom calls, I don't think he is concerned that someone will confront him in such a small and cozy environment. He could deflect any questions and then claim that he is being harassed and end the call quickly. He knows that someone could sign up, then record the call, so he would not be inclined to humor anyone trying to ask uncomfortable questions. Or at least, he should know this. It's also possible that he would try to shout such a person down or humiliate them, not realizing that others on the call will be reaching for the 'unsubscribe' option as a result.

I agree with the belief that he might be feeling unmotivated to join meetings with only one or a few people. It's a step down, and a real blow to his ego. He was working his way up to filling ballrooms or possibly even theatres. Now it's low-turnout Zoom calls and trips to the karaoke bar. Not quite the life he thought he'd be living at this point.

18

Do the old boys on the GB actually report their field service hours?

by eyeslice in

this came to mind as my 71 year old wife got up at 6:30 to drive 1.1/4 hours to meet the field ministry group.

we live a long way from the kingdom hall and the traffic is horrendous where we live!.

somehow, i doubt the good old boys do much themselves.

TonusOH

Didn't they let Rutherford off the hook back when he was the president of the WTS? He was demanding onerous preaching schedules while not spending a minute in field service himself, and the explanation was that he was too busy organizing the effort and giving speeches. He did make that phonograph recording that JWs played for people when they were in field service. Maybe he counted that, and ended up preaching two million hours a month or something.

What they don't seem to remember is that Jesus (ie, someone slightly higher on the totem pole than them) preached constantly and to whoever would listen. The GB? Too busy making videos and waiting while the unpaid labor cleans their rooms, cooks their meals, and shines their shoes. Why, the resemblance to the holy men of the past is unmistakable!

50

1969 Awake on Education - A Sore Spot for Me

by NotBlind in

jw
friends

my father would have started college 49 years ago this week.

about three months earlier, the week he graduated high school, the awake!

magazine came out with some very clear direction to teenagers.

TonusOH

If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years.

This, to me, is such an important passage. JWs are taught to explain that there were no definitive statements made about 1975. And a JW who reads the above will immediately point to the second part and claim that they were just trying to interpret the evidence and were not making a definitive statement.

But that isn't what the first sentence says. It says to a young person, you NEED to face THE FACT that you will NEVER GROW OLD in this system of things. There is no equivocation there. None. "Oh, but the GB actually said--" NO! What they said was that it was a FACT that you NEEDED to face- you would NEVER grow old. If you still object, I would ask you to check a dictionary for the definition of words like NEED, FACT, and NEVER.

I got very lucky, that an opportunity for a career dropped in my lap when I was in my mid-20s and I took full advantage because it did not seem as if it would interfere with the meetings and JW obligations. And by the time it really got rolling, I was already starting to fade and could dive in without worry. But I was also not lucky, in that I had passed up a chance at a career I wanted just as badly, because I knew it would 'cause conflict' with my life as a JW. It still haunts me, though not as bad as it would if I was still a mail clerk today.

And all that time, I did not know that they had predicted the above when I was not quite a year old. And I'm in my mid-50s now. If you feel that this does not qualify as GROWING OLD in the present system of things, I would say that you might be splitting hairs. To say nothing of people in their teens and twenties at the time, who are in their 60s and 70s now. The WTS lied to us. A LOT. Wake up.

89

Myth of 1914

by peacefulpete in

the wt engages in history revisionism when insisting the world changed overnight in 1914. in fact the european power struggles that came to a head were centuries old.

millions of lives had been lost in the wars of the 19th century, with the world a powder keg the years prior to the assassination of franz ferdinand in june 1914 which is often said, albeit rather arbitrarily, as the start of the war that escalated over the next 4 years into the great war.

take a look at these two pages and ask if the wt's interpretation of history seems accurate to you.

TonusOH

I think the issue is not the 1914 date by itself, but the way they tied it to expectations for so long through their explanation of the 'generations.' The idea, for a long time, was that there was a growing urgency as we got farther from that year, because there was a clear limit to the amount of time left. That helped with recruiting and with keeping the rank and file in line, because people will hedge their bets-- if the end is that close, why not stay in a bit longer to be sure?

They've modified the explanation, but they really should have just said 'look, we have new light and it says that 1914 is correct but the generation teaching doesn't apply to the modern age. So we know the end is near, but we cannot say how near.' That kind of kills the sense of urgency you get from having a specific number or numbers, but their approach (overlapping generations) is likely to turn away more people than just admitting that they were... mistaken.

Sometimes you must take the honest approach and hope for the best. Because if you keep peddling dishonest teachings that get more and more convoluted and unconvincing, you are still killing off your religion, but in a way that people will never forget and use as a cautionary tale.