Posts by TonusOH

20

The org's "new lights" - corrupting Proverbs 4:18

by BoogerMan in

proverbs 4:18 says, "but the path of the righteous....grows brighter and brighter until full daylight.".

the bible "light" doesn't get brighter - it never changes - it's a person's direction & course of life which gets brighter.. w11 9/15 p. 14 par.

15 - "when spiritual light on some matter gets brighter, do you try to understand the underlying scriptural reasons for the adjustment?

TonusOH

The changes have little effect on JWs because they are rarely aware of them. When I was a JW, I felt confident that I knew the organization's history better than any outsider. How could I not? I was a JW! I had the books, and those books had the history, and I had lived that life for decades.

Then I get out, start reading, and am surprised to find that I knew almost nothing about the organization's history. What little I did know what severely skewed by the WTS to present the version they wanted me to know. And then I realized that JWs know less about their own religious organization than most people, because even the stuff we do know is false or so skewed that it may as well be false.

And frankly, the concept of "new light" is a convenient cover for the fact that religious beliefs have to change as humanity learns more about ourselves and the world around us. The illumination isn't coming from god; it's coming from people. Even today, after more than two thousand years, we still can't agree on what the Bible says or means in a lot of places. How 'bright' can it be?

75

God won't lift a finger to help you.

by nicolaou in

sea breeze: @nicolau,i stated my case rather succiently, which you failed to address.

if you have a better solution to the problem of evil than what jesus offers, then why don't you present that in a new topic?.

pathetic diversion.

TonusOH

Halcon: If you truly believe and understand this, then you would refrain from categorizing what God does or doesn't do as 'good' or 'bad' yourself.

I don't believe it, I am basing my comments on the view of a Christian who subscribes to the theory of divine command, where good and bad are based entirely on what God decides they are. I believe that it is possible to understand what makes an action moral or immoral; that there is a basis for determining this. That belief runs counter to the idea of divine command, so I am taking the divine command theory to its logical conclusion.

Halcon: You assume you understand what is the eternal future as God knows it.

I am basing my understanding on God's past actions and the notion that his nature does not change.

God is either predictable --with a past that gives us an understanding of what he is like-- or unpredictable. The latter runs into the issue that any action he takes is good, and thus he is capable of anything, regardless of how we might view that action. The former gives us an image of a person who expresses cruelty on a recurring basis.

I don't think the god-of-the-gaps argument works here. Either God is comprehensible to us, or he is not. Either way, we would be facing an uncertain and quite scary future if he was real.

27

MANY DIFFICULT YEARS AHEAD : PER CHRISTENSEN

by raymond frantz in

jw
friends

https://youtu.be/jsmbtv4nafi?si=ezj0dnudyjls4knc.

there was a time they preached the great tribulation was a short period of time between the fall of babylon and jesus coming back to save them, now they realize there are difficult years ahead of us, watch this latest morning worship video by per christensen on this subject .

TonusOH

The thing is, we probably should have seen these changes coming. Or, at least, that there would be enough changes to move them in a new direction. They've done it before, though in the past it was usually after the WTS president died and the new one stepped in, ready to mold it into his vision. I guess I expected that to stop after they formed the GB, but nothing is as constant as change.

We might be at an early stage of a revamp of the religion. So now I'm intrigued as to what other changes they might make. Maybe holidays and birthdays are not as far-fetched as I thought...

75

Would you be able to survive a three day Assembly?

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

the last assembly i attended was over 10 years ago.

the monotone speakers, boring talks, uncomfortable seats, long prayers and nodding off after the lunch break did me in.

i survived the morning sessions, but the afternoon sessions were brutal.

TonusOH

I think what gets most PIMIs through it is the sense that they are making a real sacrifice, putting themselves through the effort to get there. They feel like it is worth it, for the chance to be with other JWs and to find people they have not seen for a year or more. And they are adding to their 'treasure in heaven' by showing Jehovah that they are devoted.

Plus, they get to gossip about anyone who didn't make it, and feel superior to them.

34

Jehovah's Witnesses came by today.

by 3rdgen in

this morning i was in our front yard sitting down pulling weeds when i saw 3 people slowly walking on the sidewalk in my direction.

2 of them were young, handsome, clean shaven, wearing nice crisp white shirts and perfectly tailored black slacks.

they could have been mormons except.... there was a 60ish portly woman wearing a frumpy dress and ugly sandals.

TonusOH

You can never be sure how a person will react to having their beliefs challenged. I wonder how many JWs who are out in field service are harboring doubts of some kind, and if they are troubled by anything they have heard or seen or learned. Sometimes, a short conversation can be the push they need to take the leap.

Maybe she will eventually reply to this post.

75

God won't lift a finger to help you.

by nicolaou in

sea breeze: @nicolau,i stated my case rather succiently, which you failed to address.

if you have a better solution to the problem of evil than what jesus offers, then why don't you present that in a new topic?.

pathetic diversion.

TonusOH

Halcon: Because you expect a different action from the Creator. And you base your expectation on your everyday human to human relationships.

I base my expectation on his past behavior, as described in the book he inspired men to write.

I cannot base my expectation on human standards of morality or behavior, because God transcends those. It strikes me as inappropriate to even call him good or bad, moral or immoral, just or unjust. He exists on a completely different moral plane, and those terms do not apply. They are, as you note, human standards.

Thus, I cannot base my expectations on what is good or moral or fair. Those do not apply to God. I can only base them on what he has done in the past, as that would more accurately reflect his nature. The Biblical god is prone to anger and rash decisions, often carried out in a violent and brutal manner. Even in the NT, where we get a more humane version of God, he speaks of sifting people and making many of them suffer. He speaks of the difficulty of attaining salvation. He may be kinder and gentler, but only during his Earthly sojourn.

I don't have to read his mind and heart in order to understand what to expect. His actions seem sufficient. And he is, after all, unchanging. To expect him to act against the nature that he has displayed all this time strikes me as futile.

75

Would you be able to survive a three day Assembly?

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

the last assembly i attended was over 10 years ago.

the monotone speakers, boring talks, uncomfortable seats, long prayers and nodding off after the lunch break did me in.

i survived the morning sessions, but the afternoon sessions were brutal.

TonusOH

Beth Sarim, you had it good. For us, it was getting up early so we could get to the KH where the bus was waiting to drive us 1-2 hrs to the convention hall. No restaurant for us! My mom would make an insane amount of food and bring it in these big containers. She liked getting praise for her cooking, so she made enough for a LOT of people to stop by and taste.

Then, after the final prayer, the long walk to the parking lot to get on the bus (which was hopefully not late) and the 1-2 hour drive back to the KH and then the walk home. It was a long day. And then we would repeat it three more times. What the hell was wrong with us?

20

Did your witness family have a 'Thanksgiving' that wasn't on Thanksgiving?

by SydBarrett in

jw
friends

my family had several elders, ministerial servants, auxillary pioneers etc, so it certainly wasn't one of those 'barely in' families.

but in certain small ways, i think mine were slightly less hard line than some other families i've heard stories about over the years.

one example was the 'fall dinner'.

TonusOH

These comments are very familiar! We, too, would explain that we did not celebrate Thanksgiving because "we are thankful every day." And my mother would do a full Thanksgiving dinner. I mean everything! Whole turkey that was roasting all day, mashed potatoes, cranberry sauce... all of it. She, too, would claim that the foods were all on sale and it made the most sense to buy these items.

(Now, I'm sure that the turkeys were much cheaper around this time, so her rationale wasn't crazy. But the other trimmings? The mashed potatoes? The cranberry sauce? Maybe the prices were slightly lower to move the extra inventory (though not at first) but I can say for certain that the only time we ate cranberry sauce was at Thanksgiving. It was a very specific purchase.)

It was only for us (her and her children, and maybe my dad, if he managed to show up). I do wonder if there would have been any issues if the elders had gotten wind of it. My mom has always been a 100% die-hard JW, and I think that she would have been mortified if anyone in the congregation had seen the spread she laid out each year.

27

MANY DIFFICULT YEARS AHEAD : PER CHRISTENSEN

by raymond frantz in

jw
friends

https://youtu.be/jsmbtv4nafi?si=ezj0dnudyjls4knc.

there was a time they preached the great tribulation was a short period of time between the fall of babylon and jesus coming back to save them, now they realize there are difficult years ahead of us, watch this latest morning worship video by per christensen on this subject .

TonusOH

It might be that, for stuff that they consider important enough, they will give the speaker a more detailed outline than usual and ask that he stick to it as close as possible. Or the guy just isn't great at giving public talks, which is strange for a JW, depending on how long they have been in.

42

What would happen to a JW for celebrating Christmas?

by Vanderhoven7 in

mark jones writes:.

if they were spied upon and it was reported to the elders they’d be “invited” to a judicial committee whereupon they’d be cross examined in a locked backroom by three men acting as judge and jury to decide if they are guilty.. .

if the elders decide that they are guilty, they’ll then decide if the person is sorry.

TonusOH

I suppose they could make it a "conscience matter" at first, then look the other way as more and more JWs celebrated. But it's a sticky issue for them, because for so long it was one of the ways they differentiated themselves from "false religion" and "Christendom." If they end up saying it's okay, then decades of denounciation go out the window. Also, one of their rationales was that Xmas has pagan origins, and that's not entirely false.

On the other hand, if you're going to say it's okay to celebrate Jesus's birthday, then birthday celebrations are also okay. Next thing you know, Easter is on the table.

Honestly... I just don't see it. It would be a clear sign that they are going mainstream, and the whole idea was that mainstream Christianity is a tool of the Devil designed to draw people away from Jehovah. From Rutherford's time, they did not pass up a chance to attack non-JW denominations as false, as offensive to God. That is a whole lot of history to turn their backs on. How many books/magazines would they need to destroy to clean up that mess?