Posts by TonusOH

26

A simple rebuttal to the recent 'Last Minute Repentance' change.

by nicolaou in

for decades, critics have pointed out the unfairness of god slaughtering billions in a future armageddon who never even met a jw much less heard their life-saving message.

(remember the contortions around the collective responsibility of nations?

) also, why do babies and children have to die simply because their parents rejected the witnesses?

TonusOH

Sea Breeze: If you were not a product of the God of the bible, you would not even be able to admit that you have notions of good and evil as you have done above.

Your god does not have 'notions' of good or evil. In the universe as you envision it, there are no notions of good or evil. There is only what god claims is good or evil, and they are absolute... until such time as they are not.

I have asked you, numerous times, if you can or cannot determine what makes murder wrong. Or theft, or rape, or deception, or any of a number of actions that we deem immoral or wrong. You avoid answering this, because to do so invalidates the idea that only god can determine right or wrong. You do this, even though we both know you could describe why any of those actions are wrong. It's easy enough for a child to understand, which we witness all the time when parents explain to them why something is good or bad.

Pretty much everyone -including religious people- can do this. The idea that we cannot determine what is right or wrong without god fails the moment we admit that we can explain why certain actions are good or bad. We can use this very same method to explain why we don't get upset at rocks or chemicals, or why we don't put animals on trial.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

TonusOH

Sea Breeze: That is the basis of my belief that God is not a liar.

Sea Breeze: What is the basis of your unbelief?

For starters, the Bible explains that god lied to the first humans, threatening to kill them on the day they ate of the forbidden fruit. What's more, he also deceptively withheld the real reason he did not want them to eat it-- he did not want them to become like him, knowing right from wrong.

But that wasn't even the point I was making. As you quoted, I asked what basis you had for trusting that god would do as you expect him to. God doesn't just lie in the Bible, he massacres people and animals en masse because the world he created went bad almost immediately. And this angry reaction fixed nothing. This alone should ring alarm bells in your mind.

This god executed a man on the spot for the 'crime' of trying to steady the Ark of the Covenant when he thought it was going to fall off a cart. Another abrupt and extreme act of violence done in anger.

This god made a deal with the devil and allowed the devil to visit murder and catastrophe upon a man that even god found no fault with. When he finally decided to clear things up, one of the first things he did was to utterly humiliate Job for the 'crime' of wanting an explanation for the sheer hell he had been put through.

This god watched David bed another man's wife and arrange for the murder of that man. Seeing this travesty, god decided that David would be punished by... the deaths of his newborn infant and grown son. David, by the way, would be part of the lineage that would lead to the birth of the messiah.

There are plenty more examples that show this god to be angry, vengeful, jealous, petty, and gruesomely violent. I ask again, what basis do you have to trust that he will not eventually discard you? Or revise the terms of any offer he made to you? He is unpredictable, prone to irrational outbursts of anger, and utterly unstoppable.

I mean, what is his plan for those gifted with the reward of a heavenly afterlife? They get to spend eternity reminding god of how great he is, forever and ever. Aside from how unnecessary this is, and how awkward it must be to try and stroke the universe's biggest ego for the rest of your immortal life, this also subverts free will. I'm not sure you're reading the book correctly, if you're thinking god is on the level.

26

A simple rebuttal to the recent 'Last Minute Repentance' change.

by nicolaou in

for decades, critics have pointed out the unfairness of god slaughtering billions in a future armageddon who never even met a jw much less heard their life-saving message.

(remember the contortions around the collective responsibility of nations?

) also, why do babies and children have to die simply because their parents rejected the witnesses?

TonusOH

Sea Breeze: What I am wondering is how happenstance could possibly provide atheists with ANY notion of universal evil?

What is "universal evil" and where does it fit into the discussion of determining moral values?

141

THANK YOU Steven Unthank

by cedars in

ohiocowboy has just posted this information on the two other threads dealing with the sudden collapse of the unthank cases.. i don't know steven unthank, but i just want to thank him from the bottom of my heart for having the courage against overwhelming odds to try and bring the watch tower society to justice over their deplorable neglect when it comes to protecting children from abuse and molestation.. steven is a man of justice and integrity who i deeply admire.

his actions will never be forgotten, and i only hope he can find it within himself to continue his work in whatever avenue may become available in the future.. they have won this battle, but they can never win the war.. .

cedars.

TonusOH

cedars: I personally know what it's like to be on the losing side of a legal verdict, and I can assure you it's an emotionally draining and humiliating experience.

It's like he could see into the future!

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

TonusOH

So, by your reasoning, you cannot know how god will treat you. Good is entirely at his discretion. What basis is there to trust that he will do as you expect, and not go in any other direction, since any action he takes is, by definition, good?

46

What you think consequences gonna be for watchtower if they lose the court appeal in Norway?

by Hellothere in

personally i think they gonna realise god's not backing org.

that idea gonna get even more established in their minds.

i think the real selling of kingdom hall gonna start then.

TonusOH

Jesus got baptized when he was 29 or 30, didn't he? Make that the new limit.

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

TonusOH

Sea Breeze: God is doing a work where only those that want him will experience his unimaginable goodness.

But 'goodness' is defined by god, not by us. What if god decides that goodness involves eternal suffering? This would not be wrong, or bad, or immoral on his part, unless you suddenly became the arbiter of such things. Why would you trust that he would act according to your expectations? You admit to being a lowly sinner who cannot earn the rewards he offers, who deserves only damnation. Would god be unjustified if he decided to rescind the reward and give you your just desserts? How?

If good/bad or right/wrong are entirely at god's discretion to determine, then you have no reason to expect anything specific from him. If you feel you are safe because god would never go back on his word, that he would never lie or decieve, you must be assuming that these are bad things. But they're not, if god decides otherwise. What basis is there for expecting that god will act a specific way?

128

Why Do JW's Believe that Hell is Symbolic When the Disciples of the Apostles believed it Was Literal ?

by Sea Breeze in

looks like the early christians believed jesus when he warned about hell over 40 times.

why don't the jw's do the same?.

from “the epistle of barnabas” (70-130ad).

TonusOH

I would certainly fear someone who was capable of doing that, and showed an inclination to do so. Would anyone truly be safe?

26

A simple rebuttal to the recent 'Last Minute Repentance' change.

by nicolaou in

for decades, critics have pointed out the unfairness of god slaughtering billions in a future armageddon who never even met a jw much less heard their life-saving message.

(remember the contortions around the collective responsibility of nations?

) also, why do babies and children have to die simply because their parents rejected the witnesses?

TonusOH

Sea Breeze: There’s nothing wrong with serial killers if atheism is true

It seems that you are saying that murder is not inherently wrong, that it's only wrong because god specifically said it was. Are you saying you can't think of a reason why it's not good to kill indiscriminately? Any reason, at all?

48

2024 when will Witnesses admit they are wrong???

by Witness 007 in

1914 generation is long gone.

1975 was a joke 40 years ago.

i know of many witnesses still hanging on for armagedon but when will they give up?

TonusOH

He has to check the cushions, first. That can take a while. Centuries, even!