Posts by TonusOH

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

TonusOH

Halcon: Were they truly going to be a most miserable unhappy couple for being humble and trusting their Creator?

I am wondering if they had any reason to trust their creator, seeing as how he set them up for a failure that resonates thousands of years later. As an allegory, the lesson is clear: right and wrong are god's to determine. It's just poorly presented. I doubt that the intent was to promote the idea that ignorance is bliss, but it's an unavoidable conclusion. Or that god's perfect setup was undone by allowing humans to make their own decisions.

It also brings up the question of how desireable free will is. If there is one path that makes us happy and prosperous, and every other path leads to misery and suffering, what good does it do us to have a choice? Aren't we better off only able to do the things that god wants?

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

TonusOH

Halcon: This snake is good...

I don't see a context in which the snake is good, at least as a counterbalance to god. In some contexts, the snake is neutral (if it represents Eve's inner dialogue, for example). In some, the snake is evil (as defined in the NT). Since the outcome of its actions is negative, there isn't a good option, IMO. Except, perhaps, as a warning.

I think the focus on "who lied first" is a distraction (though it might make an interesting Abbott and Costello routine). Even as an allegorical tale, it implies that god withheld important understanding from mankind and left us to our own (uninformed) devices, then punished us for it. It reveals a part of Yahweh's nature that I think we can see throughout the Bible, but that makes for a very frightening character. He acts in a manner that is arbitrary and unpredictable. Since he cannot be held to a moral standard, he is capable of anything. And we are forced to accept this as a good thing.

35

Re-activate me?

by punkofnice in

there was a knock at my door and i thought it was my take-away being delivered.. long story short, it was 2 elders calling to see me.

i guess to re-activate me.

once they said who they were i recognised them.

TonusOH

punkofnice: it was 2 Elders calling to see me. I guess to re-activate me.

Maybe you're a spy, like Jason Bourne. They were going to turn your memories back on, of the time when you were the world's deadlist assassin?

39

JE-sus making a comeback at the 2024 Convention

by dropoffyourkeylee in

attended the friday sesson of the 2024 summer convention.. july 5, 2024 summer convention crowd photo; they invited quite a lot of empty chairs.. .

the facility usually has 5500-6500. they spun it saying that fewer congregations were assigned.

there were 6 of the smaller, more distant sections blocked off with tarps to lessen cleaning, which i understand.

TonusOH

Sea Breeze: many JW's are immitating his example and are describing their coming to the convention more as a parousia.

Oh, I like that!

"No, no, brothers! I was at the convention! I attended invisibly."

20

What has the Spiritual Paradise of the WTS been over time

by blondie in

jw
friends

the first mention i find in the wts publications is 1958. although the wts says the index goes from 1930 to 1985, nothing appears before 1958 a search only found by using the phrase "spiritual paradise" not in the index.

in 2015 there was a clarification of the phrase "of course, we should not conclude that the terms “spiritual paradise” and “spiritual temple” are the same.

the spiritual temple is god’s arrangement for true worship.".

TonusOH

It's not hard to understand what they mean by the term. But the WTS uses it as a marketing term. Knowing that your eternal soul is safe in god's hands means less worry about the material world, the here and the now. Not surprisingly, this can lead to people being quite miserable in the here and now, because sweet spiritual release is just around the corner.

38

unbaptized boy having priority over women

by enoughisenough in

i was thinking about the male children ( even unbaptized ) being placed ahead of the sisters.

; and i thought the jw were raising a bunch of misogynist.

would these kids not feel more important than their mothers let alone other women.

TonusOH

JWs emphasize the headship of the husband over the family. When your organization is based on the authority given to men by god himself, it's easy to see how that can be abused. A wife who seeks help when her husband is being domineering and selfish has to deal with men who are hesitant to undermine that authority (especially when they also benefit from it). She is often told to grin and bear it, since the New System is around the corner and all of these flaws will fade away and soon her husband will be the very model of a perfect man.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

TonusOH

Halcon: But would you still eat of the tree of life if it meant to keep living?

I would have to, wouldn't I?

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

TonusOH

I'm more fascinated by the concept of the Tree of Life. The story implies that Adam and Eve were not immortal- they had a finite lifespan. They had to have access to the Tree of Life if they wanted to continue to live. Yahweh is not above the most petty mechanisms of control.

The story does not read well if it is taken literally, as JWs do. A literal reading makes Yahweh something of an extortionist, dangling the Tree of Life in one hand and the Tree of Knowledge in the other. Take from one, lest ye run out of life. Take not from the other, or I shall deny thee access to the first one. Then he looks away as a snake tempts the hopelessly unprepared Eve into breaking god's rules. And finally, he curses humankind and even the planet itself, as punishment.

The story portrays him as a petty thug. A mean and unscrupulous person. A jerk. He creates a world, populates it with a pair of sentient beings, then places traps all around them. Their failure is inevitable, and he knows this. It's part of his plan to... build himself up as a savior????

Nothing about it reflects the actions of a considerate, kind, or caring person. Which makes the attempts at explanation even worse. I cannot accept that a loving being would do any of this. It is incoherent. It makes no sense. An impersonal and uncaring god might spawn a universe and leave it to its devices, leading to a world where suffering happens constantly and happiness is fleeting. That god is more likely to be real than Yahweh.

13

JW Ranking System

by NotFormer in

it's fairly evident to little old outsider me that the organisation has a class system, perhaps even a caste system.. from what i've read, there seems to not only be an official ranking system (m.s., elder, c.o.

) but an unofficial one.

has anyone ever sat down to figure out what the unofficial ranks are and how they affect the pecking order?

TonusOH

That would vary from congregation to congregation. For the most part, the more dedicated you were, the more that people would look up to you. Any sort of privilege or service was seen as praiseworthy. But how they stacked up against one another was probably not consistent from one place to another.

In the congregations that I attended, Bethelites were usually very well regarded. The understanding was that they had to be worthy enough to serve and it was seen as a bit of a sacrifice for the younger members (unless they were locals). It was like being allowed to serve in the temple; everyone else was going to regard you with a sense of wonder.

But they were usually not local, and thus not as well known, so it was easier to focus on the service and not the person. Pioneers, ministerial servants, elders, and so on... they were locals and how much they were liked (or disliked) depended on how much of an impression they had made. COs and DOs were more like Bethelites, in that we only knew them superficially, so they were held in higher esteem.

7

Have Witnesses made more false prophecies then any other religion??

by Witness 007 in

armagedon in 1914 rutherford 1925 1940's the fascist catholic take over franz 1975 and 2000 the 1914 generation will not die.

now the generation that new the generation....this must break a world record of false prophecies in any religion..

TonusOH

Camping is a high-profile example, but even he was only wrong three times.