Posts by TonusOH

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

TonusOH

Halcon: Further, the snake resorted to a temptation... that they would be like God.

I think this is where the story is more sensible as an allegory and not a literal event. The serpent tempted Eve, but he does so with the truth- eating from the fruit will grant them the knowledge of good and evil. Both god and the serpent even use the same phrasing, that she would 'become like god.' As an allegory, it isn't perfect, but it works well enough-- Eve is tempted by the possibility of being able to direct her own life, independent of god's rules. (The fact that this idea is so obviously flawed is simply a reflection of the people and culture that produced it, IMO.)

In the literal reading, one must wonder why god would infuse the tree with a power that was so destructive, leading to thousands of years of suffering. The all-or-nothing approach (obey or die) is extreme in any context, much less one where god is meant to be a kind and loving father who is pained by our failures. It is impossible to square the ideal person of god with the person who sets Adam and Eve up for a fall, then is merciless in his method of resolution. If this was the best outcome one could have hoped for, then god is not the person that the NT makes him out to be.

39

JE-sus making a comeback at the 2024 Convention

by dropoffyourkeylee in

attended the friday sesson of the 2024 summer convention.. july 5, 2024 summer convention crowd photo; they invited quite a lot of empty chairs.. .

the facility usually has 5500-6500. they spun it saying that fewer congregations were assigned.

there were 6 of the smaller, more distant sections blocked off with tarps to lessen cleaning, which i understand.

TonusOH

WingCommander: the old hot-ass Veteran's Stadium in FilthyDelphia

We went to one there in 1983. I think every day was 95 degrees F and not a cloud in the sky. There was a LOT of seating that had no shade. Except for a few people who brought large umbrellas, everyone was crammed into the seating that had some shade, leaving the large areas near the field almost totally empty. I think we referred to those seats as 'Death Valley.'

57

Holding a grudge

by LongHairGal in

i read something recently on reddit (not sure what thread) where a person related how some jw told them that ‘they hold a grudge’.. this reminded me of something an old jw acquaintance said to me some years back when i related my bad experience in the religion.. so, apparently, jehovah’s witnesses feel they should be forgiven for anything.

people should forget all about it and act like nothing happened and be charitable towards them, etc… when i read in james and ephesians i got the sense ‘holding a grudge’ was referring to the things average people do to offend each other.. i don’t see it applying to a religion that claimed to speak for god and who engendered hateful and unchristian attitudes towards people.. i know because i experienced this.. in addition, some people’s lives were damaged by listening to faulty teachings and interference in things that were clearly none of anybody’s business.. one case in point: them knocking worldly careers and now there are thousands of destitute jws in senior years with nothing.. then in 2023 the religion does away with a century old teaching about counting hours in the ministry.

meanwhile, i got judged over this.

TonusOH

Yeah, I think there is a difference between forgiving and forgetting.

In regards to the WTS, if they have not expressed contrition for their actions and attitudes of the past, I think it is fair to NOT forgive them, unless you need that for your own peace of mind (which is, I think, a valid reason to forgive). But we can't forget, or act as if they did not do these things in the past. The organization sees their past actions as "spirit-guided" and thus they see no need to apologize. Not even to those people who have suffered as a direct result of their doctrines and policies.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

TonusOH

Halcon: Will I recognize God as my creator and I am the creation, only human?

I think this question only arises because we are unable to interact with god, and god just never seems to show up anymore. Adam, Eve, and the serpent would not have had this issue. In that sense, it doesn't strike me as a question of whether or not they recognized god's position and authority. The humans must have, as they did not eat of the forbidden fruit until goaded into doing so.

The story implies that things were working out just fine until the serpent entered the picture. I don't see this as a question of whether modesty compels us to understand our relationship with god-- Adam and Eve appear to have figured this out. I think it's a question of whether god was satisfied with this, and why he would introduce a factor which unraveled his utopia.

I accept the premise that the serpent deceived Eve. I think it's fair to consider that her understanding would not have involved dying --at any time-- as a result of eating the fruit. But where does the serpent come from? God must have created it. Did he do so with the understanding that it would work to undermine paradise and trap humanity in centuries of suffering? Did he give snakes the gift of speech and a clever nature, unaware of what might transpire? Were the humans ready for this kind of test? If not, was it fair?

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

TonusOH

Halcon: Were they truly going to be a most miserable unhappy couple for being humble and trusting their Creator?

I am wondering if they had any reason to trust their creator, seeing as how he set them up for a failure that resonates thousands of years later. As an allegory, the lesson is clear: right and wrong are god's to determine. It's just poorly presented. I doubt that the intent was to promote the idea that ignorance is bliss, but it's an unavoidable conclusion. Or that god's perfect setup was undone by allowing humans to make their own decisions.

It also brings up the question of how desireable free will is. If there is one path that makes us happy and prosperous, and every other path leads to misery and suffering, what good does it do us to have a choice? Aren't we better off only able to do the things that god wants?

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

TonusOH

Halcon: This snake is good...

I don't see a context in which the snake is good, at least as a counterbalance to god. In some contexts, the snake is neutral (if it represents Eve's inner dialogue, for example). In some, the snake is evil (as defined in the NT). Since the outcome of its actions is negative, there isn't a good option, IMO. Except, perhaps, as a warning.

I think the focus on "who lied first" is a distraction (though it might make an interesting Abbott and Costello routine). Even as an allegorical tale, it implies that god withheld important understanding from mankind and left us to our own (uninformed) devices, then punished us for it. It reveals a part of Yahweh's nature that I think we can see throughout the Bible, but that makes for a very frightening character. He acts in a manner that is arbitrary and unpredictable. Since he cannot be held to a moral standard, he is capable of anything. And we are forced to accept this as a good thing.

35

Re-activate me?

by punkofnice in

there was a knock at my door and i thought it was my take-away being delivered.. long story short, it was 2 elders calling to see me.

i guess to re-activate me.

once they said who they were i recognised them.

TonusOH

punkofnice: it was 2 Elders calling to see me. I guess to re-activate me.

Maybe you're a spy, like Jason Bourne. They were going to turn your memories back on, of the time when you were the world's deadlist assassin?

39

JE-sus making a comeback at the 2024 Convention

by dropoffyourkeylee in

attended the friday sesson of the 2024 summer convention.. july 5, 2024 summer convention crowd photo; they invited quite a lot of empty chairs.. .

the facility usually has 5500-6500. they spun it saying that fewer congregations were assigned.

there were 6 of the smaller, more distant sections blocked off with tarps to lessen cleaning, which i understand.

TonusOH

Sea Breeze: many JW's are immitating his example and are describing their coming to the convention more as a parousia.

Oh, I like that!

"No, no, brothers! I was at the convention! I attended invisibly."

20

What has the Spiritual Paradise of the WTS been over time

by blondie in

jw
friends

the first mention i find in the wts publications is 1958. although the wts says the index goes from 1930 to 1985, nothing appears before 1958 a search only found by using the phrase "spiritual paradise" not in the index.

in 2015 there was a clarification of the phrase "of course, we should not conclude that the terms “spiritual paradise” and “spiritual temple” are the same.

the spiritual temple is god’s arrangement for true worship.".

TonusOH

It's not hard to understand what they mean by the term. But the WTS uses it as a marketing term. Knowing that your eternal soul is safe in god's hands means less worry about the material world, the here and the now. Not surprisingly, this can lead to people being quite miserable in the here and now, because sweet spiritual release is just around the corner.

38

unbaptized boy having priority over women

by enoughisenough in

i was thinking about the male children ( even unbaptized ) being placed ahead of the sisters.

; and i thought the jw were raising a bunch of misogynist.

would these kids not feel more important than their mothers let alone other women.

TonusOH

JWs emphasize the headship of the husband over the family. When your organization is based on the authority given to men by god himself, it's easy to see how that can be abused. A wife who seeks help when her husband is being domineering and selfish has to deal with men who are hesitant to undermine that authority (especially when they also benefit from it). She is often told to grin and bear it, since the New System is around the corner and all of these flaws will fade away and soon her husband will be the very model of a perfect man.