My understanding was the same as ThomasMore's: it was describing the way the anointed would be immediately summoned to heaven upon death, which began to happen after 1914. I don't even recall hearing the word "rapture" much at all as a JW. To the extent that I ever thought about it, I assume I saw it as another false teaching of "Christendom."
TonusOH
JoinedPosts by TonusOH
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22
The Rapture
by Sea Breeze inwhen i was pioneering, i don't remember ever addressing the rapture question.
does anyone know how a jw would respond to this verse?
for the lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of god.
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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TonusOH
Halcon: many folks do feel that need in their heart to show appreciation for their Creator. Not everyone is opposed.
That isn't the point I was making. The god described in the Bible is quite needy and demands recognition. This doesn't fit with a person of immense power who deigns to deal with the population of a vanishingly small portion of a universe he formed with his own hands. It's one of the reasons I cannot make sense of him.
Halcon: For the same folks I mentioned above, this isn't a problem.
Are you sure? Life in heaven is never described in the Bible, aside from angels going about their assignments and future residents making sure god receives his due glorification. An eternity of that is not something that a typical person -no matter how devout- seems able to stomach without some very notable changes to their personalities.
This is one of the issues I have with the whole setup. If we have to be changed this significantly in order to spend eternity with god, it would have been far more sensible to skip the part where things go wrong and incredible suffering results for a few thousand years. If humanity needed repairs, better to have gotten them done right at the start.
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Missing photos, even Avatars
by blondie ini think someone else noticed this here recently.
i wondered when i signed on today july 9, 2024, that even the avatars were missing.
does simon know?
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TonusOH
Shhh! People who ask questions like that tend to disappear.
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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TonusOH
Halcon: Not correct, if the scriptures are to be believed regarding the eventual unity between mankind and God.
The scriptures are fairly vague about this, though. Perhaps the one clear indication is that we are to spend eternity glorifying a being who doesn't need to be glorified. I think this means we will lose our freedom, as I cannot see everyone doing that forever and being satisfied with it. Why go through a relatively brief life that doesn't come close to resembling the life we will spend the rest of eternity in?
Halcon: Don't forget, that despite failing to follow his rules there are many that truly want to.
And yet, they cannot. So we have to wonder what will change to make that capable of doing so, while retaining whatever it is that makes them who they are. That's a pretty fundamental behavioral change, IMO. And it makes me wonder why this couldn't have been turned on for that first human couple. It would have avoided thousands of years of suffering (and an eternity of suffering to come, for a great many).
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3041
It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)
by Simon inuh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.
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TonusOH
Can someone be all three? Asking for a
friendobnoxious Youtuber. -
299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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TonusOH
Halcon: No doubt, God causes us human beings to feel fear, to see him as frightening. But isn't this a logical response from us?
By itself, his power and grandeur is imposing. Intimidating. I think this is understandable.
The fear comes from the realization that he frequently uses this power to punish his creation. His standards are clearly outside of the ability of his creation to maintain-- even those who are loyal and dedicated to him will admit that they fall short of his standards, no matter how hard they work to please him. Indeed, the only human who ever met Yahweh's standards was Jesus, who was a god (possibly this very same god) masquerading as a human.
And it's not just humans. At least a third of the angels have fallen, possibly many more (how many have lapsed since the last Biblical tome was written?). Meeting god's standards is a goal humans cannot reach and that even angels are likely to fall short of. Over a long enough time span, it is reasonable to expect that none of his creation will avoid his wrath. In other words, it is inevitable that we will be condemned by god.
What scenario is there, where we do not offend god? The only possible future where we are not all hellbound is one where we are stripped of free will and remade to serve. And if this was to be the eventual outcome, why not do it from the start?
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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TonusOH
As described, Yahweh is quite terrifying. And this is based on how he is described by those who think highly of him.
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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TonusOH
Halcon: I can imagine the surprise of realizing that God wasn't a big soft teddy bear after all.
Oh no, I understood that; the OT makes quite clear that Yahweh is not soft. The NT tries to remake him into a more kind and gentle person, but even there it makes clear that he is not above harsh and precipitate action. But I could rationalize that all away, since he was god, after all. As you say:
Halcon: That he has the final say, and that there is no compromising.
The reason he has the final say is because he is more powerful than we can even imagine. The reason he does not compromise is because he doesn't have to. No one can oppose him.
This means that god never has to hide who he is-- he can behave however he wishes. There is no one to oppose him. And his nature, if we believe the Bible, is of a jealous god who is given to quick anger and sudden, violent outbursts. We cannot stop him, we cannot hide from him, and the best we can do is hope that we're not the next target. We can define him however we wish, but his actions make it quite clear who he is and what he is like. He is a frightening being, when we recognize that his actions are who he is.
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299
Who told the first lie?
by nicolaou inthis is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
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TonusOH
Halcon: many simply cannot accept that he also has the final say.
This is an odd thing about gods, including Yahweh. They seem to disappoint those who know them directly.
If you were to know such a being unambiguously, there would be no question that he has the final say. He is a being of incomparable power. No one can possibly foil his plans, and no one can stand against him. There can't be any confusion about this.
And yet... so many of the people who knew him directly were unimpressed. If we go with the Christian narrative, the serpent is under the control of an angel who turned against god. This angel was able to turn the first humans against god. This angel -if the book of Revelations is to be believed- turned a third of the angels against this god. All of them knew that this action could only end in their destruction. But they were willing to turn against him anyway.
When I was a believer, I thought of god as the single most impressive and amazing individual I could possibly ever have the privilege of knowing. The idea that I might find him to be unimpressive or disappointing was simply unfathomable. And yet, so many of the people who met him were willing to turn on him, even knowing that this meant death (or worse, eternal torment).
The one constant with this being is his overwhelming power, and his willingness to use it to justify his actions. And even with that threat hanging over them, many beings have decided it is better to die and/or suffer than to live under his rule. What could they know about him that would lead them to behave in such a manner?
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3041
It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)
by Simon inuh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.
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TonusOH
Meh, he has a wife and two kids. He wasn't celibate, even if we ignore the times he was paying for sex.
He lacks willpower and has excused himself by pretending that the human sex drive is overwhelming and unstoppable. He doesn't seem to notice that most people control their sex drive just fine. But that is to be expected from someone who is so selfish and self-centered.