Posts by Saename

92

Does Morality Exist?

by Fisherman in

some people believe that stealing, lying and killing, is not moral.

some people don't.. does morality exist?

if so, prove it..

Saename

Fisherman - If morality exists, is justice moral and if so, when ? What if justice defies well- being or vice-versa?

Morality most definitely exists as a concept and a social construct, so that's not a legitimate question. A legitimate question would be whether an objective or absolute morality exists. (I noticed a lot of people here are conflating the two, but they're different.)

Justice is sometimes moral, and sometimes it's not. It depends on the situation and the corresponding circumstances. When it's not, mercy is, and mercy is the suspension of justice.

Fisherman - Another thing, I respect people's rights but I feel very very hurt to see someone with tattoos all over their body. It does not hurt people from having them but it hurts me.

The fact that it hurts you does not mean the action of getting a visible tattoo is immoral. The fact that it hurts you means that you have deep problems related to your emotional reactions, likely as a result of past religious experiences. There are other things that go into well-being, such as the axiom that it's better to live than to die, and the axiom that it's better to have autonomy over your body than the opposite. Those are just two axioms involved in metaethics. Having started with them as the default positions, then we take away from them by finding exceptions. Would it be a valid exception to limit a person's autonomy (with regards to getting tattoos) just because someone else feels hurt by seeing tattoos? You look for arguments for and against. Would it be a valid exception to limit a person's autonomy because s/he is a psychopathic murderer who kills at every opportunity? Again, you look for arguments for and against. Now, I'm not trying to say that the first case (tattoos) is the same as the second case (psychopathic murderer.) The point I'm trying to raise is that it is always assumed that all people should have autonomy over their bodies, and then we argue about the exceptions.

Of course, you can disagree with the axiom. To see the history of the moral discussions about autonomy (in several contexts) and why it should be considered very important in modern ethics, look into Autonomy in Moral and Political Philosophy.

92

Does Morality Exist?

by Fisherman in

some people believe that stealing, lying and killing, is not moral.

some people don't.. does morality exist?

if so, prove it..

Saename

cofty - We could happily dispense with the words morality and ethics and nothing would change. We would still be concerned about the implications of our actions on the well-being of other creatures. They are just convenient labels.

This is precisely why even if we're wrong about using well-being as the foundation for morality, that doesn't mean we should care about morality. So what I mean is this. Let's say someone demonstrates logically that well-being isn't the best foundation for morality, but that something else is. Okay, so what? Why should I care? If well-being shouldn't be the foundation of morality—meaning that there conceivably can be an action that is moral despite its effects diminishing the well-being of everyone—why should I then care about morality? Why not then just dispense with morality altogether and talk about well-being?

5

New JW video about evolution involving children??

by Saename in

in lloyd evans's interview with seth andrews (the thinking atheist), evans says that jws published a new footage on evolution on their website jw broadcasting.

he says it's about kids talking to their classmates about evolution.

he comments that it's an amusing video.

Saename

In Lloyd Evans's interview with Seth Andrews (The Thinking Atheist), Evans says that JWs published a new footage on evolution on their website JW Broadcasting. He says it's about kids talking to their classmates about evolution. He comments that it's an amusing video. I've never seen it, though. Does anybody know which video he's talking about? I'd like to see it!

Thanks in advance, guys!

9

Anybody here live in Calgary, Edmonton or Vancouver?

by Christian Gutierrez in

jw
friends

hey are there people here from calgary, edmonton, vancouver or anywhere in between these cities??

?.

Saename

I'm in furthest eastern part of Ontario, bordering with Quebec, so that's a long way from British Columbia and Alberta...

27

opportunity for fornication

by road to nowhere in

ever see brother ugly who is 86 being taken to the doctor by sister frigid who is 65 and also not good looking?

they have to have a chaperone or at least sit in back and front seats.

or a man who can't bring the freezing daughter in the house when he stopped briefly by because hubby is not home.

Saename

I still remember my reaction when I learned that, according to JWs, unmarried couples should always have a chaperone when on a date... I couldn't believe they were for real. So I thought of it more as a guideline rather than an actual rule. I said to myself that I would never go on a date with a freaking chaperone...

I wonder what the elders would say about my rebellious attitude? If they knew about it and said something to me to "correct" my thinking, maybe I would have left the religion much earlier than I did?

12

JW Definition of "Apostate"

by Saename in

so recently, after having a conversation with a jehovah's witness, i started wondering about how jws define the term "apostate.

" officially, every elder would tell you that an apostate is one who leaves the jehovah's witness faith.

but did anyone else notice that this is not how they use the word colloquially—that they're sort of dishonest about it?.

Saename

Here's a smile from my favourite apostate:

Image result for matt dillahunty

12

JW Definition of "Apostate"

by Saename in

so recently, after having a conversation with a jehovah's witness, i started wondering about how jws define the term "apostate.

" officially, every elder would tell you that an apostate is one who leaves the jehovah's witness faith.

but did anyone else notice that this is not how they use the word colloquially—that they're sort of dishonest about it?.

Saename

sir82, I completely agree with what you said. It perfectly describes my experience as a JW.

12

JW Definition of "Apostate"

by Saename in

so recently, after having a conversation with a jehovah's witness, i started wondering about how jws define the term "apostate.

" officially, every elder would tell you that an apostate is one who leaves the jehovah's witness faith.

but did anyone else notice that this is not how they use the word colloquially—that they're sort of dishonest about it?.

Saename

So recently, after having a conversation with a Jehovah's Witness, I started wondering about how JWs define the term "apostate." Officially, every elder would tell you that an apostate is one who leaves the Jehovah's Witness faith. But did anyone else notice that this is not how they use the word colloquially—that they're sort of dishonest about it?

During a "debate," for lack of a better word, they would tell you that an apostate isn't someone who actively and verbally disagrees with their doctrine; it's anyone who just leaves the faith and lies about the Governing Body (etc.) in order to turn active Witnesses against Jehovah. While I was conversing with a Jehovah's Witness a few weeks ago, I told him that it's not how Jehovah's Witnesses use the term in informal situations when they want to instill in you the fear of evidence.

When I was an unbaptized publisher (never got baptized; left before that happened), elders would often tell me not to participate in sort of online debates with other religious people and atheists. I always enjoyed intellectual discussions, so that was my "weak spot," from the JW point of view. And they would tell me that what I was doing was wrong. Why was it wrong?

Because apostates.

Now, here's the thing; they knew I didn't talk to the ex-JWs. Hell, I've barely even met one in any of my discussions with other religious people and atheists. I simply conversed with people who held other opinions about the Bible and God, yet they still labeled these people as "apostates." They didn't necessarily do it consciously, but they did it nonetheless.

So what did the Witness I was conversing with tell me? He told me that this is not how they define an apostate. He told me that the official definition of an "apostate" is one who leaves the faith and lies about the Governing Body (etc.) in order to turn active Witnesses against Jehovah.

That's their *official* definition—that's true. It's in their publications. But did you notice that that's not how they use the word in informal conversations with others? Especially when you're studying with them, they will first tell you an apostate is an ex-JW who's trying to deconvert you so that you begin to fear the word itself. Then, they would start applying this word to other people as well—maybe even unconsciously.

Have you had this experience as well? Or is it just me? That's what I was wondering about...

14

What do scriptural contradictions convey?

by venus in

any book that claims to be god’s word should have the minimum qualification of clarity.

if any of its verses are open to many interpretations, it cannot be god’s word.

god can easily be crystal clear as traffic police who puts traffic signals (red means stop, green means start …etc.

Saename

To be fair, including point #3 on a list of Bible contradictions is weak argumentation. It's either dishonest or ignorant.

53

JW renaming things: "It's Not this, it's ....."

by Muddy Waters in

this was brought up in another thread, but i thought it should have its own thread.

feel free to add your own observations and experience.

the jws are so duplicit, and they rename things to somehow justify their own irrationalities.

Saename

I have never understood the JW practice of having a meal at Christmas. The Witnesses would claim, and still do, that this is not a significant dinner—just another dinner with friends and family. But if so, why is this dinner always better prepared than the "usual" dinner they have? The table is decorated, the best plates and cutlery sets are out, and people stay late to play all sorts of games while enjoying lots of sweats and snacks. And then they say with a straight face that they're not celebrating Christmas... How is that any different from celebrating it—just without the Christmas tree?