Posts by Sunchild

42

Atheists at it again

by Rex B13 in

jw
friends

the site changed but the atheist proseletyzing continues.

isn't it odd how our two norwigs compliment each other in their attacks on god and the bible?

well, simon, you now have the honor of hosting a platform for the true apostates to spew their anti-god venom.. this kind of thing is sadly typical of those who leave the wts.

Sunchild

They ignore the stunning events of changed lives that follows a true conversion to Christianity.

My mother found "real Christianity" about six months or so before I left the Borg. Before that unfortunate event, I felt safe discussing anything with her since I knew that she would always love and accept me for what I was as long as I didn't hurt anyone.

Since her finding "real Christianity," though, Mom and I aren't quite as close as we used to be. You should have seen the look of sheer horror on her face when I so much as hinted at my having non-Christian beliefs. She even went so far as to tell me that she hoped I would "do the right thing before it was too late." The "right thing" being, of course, abandoning the path that feels most fulfilling and natural to me in favor of the idea that some boogeyman underground is out to get me, and that some boogeyman in the sky is going to send me to Hell if I don't constantly grovel before him and apologize for being born.

Needless to say, I haven't quite worked up the guts to tell Mom that I practice Wicca. Goddess help me when I tell her that I prefer women. But before Mom found "real Christianity," both of these things would have been non-issues. I wish I had my mother back.

They ignore the mountainous evidence of the resurrection as a fact provable in a court of law.

As others here have asked, where is it? Show me the proof.

Now, backtracking a bit....

...and those who do not want to face the fact that a life without eternity in mind is a wasted life.

*scratches her head* Why? If this is all I get, this is all I get, so I might as well make the best of it. To me, a "wasted life" is a life that's spent in fear.

*Rochelle.

---------
"Most men complacently accept 'knowledge' as 'truth'. They are sheep, ruled by fear."
-- Sydney Losstarot, "Vagrant Story."

43

photo of 'the Princess'

by Mulan in

jw
friends

the regulars here may remember that my daughter starting posting here last week, under the name princess.

in chat, people have asked if she is pretty, and i say she is.

she also looks just like me, but thinner, and prettier.

Sunchild

Venice,

You were right the first time haha it's none of your business hahah!!!!

Pity, if you'd told him yes, I would've taken that as license to flirt outrageously with you at every opportunity.

*Rochelle.

108

What drives exJWs to atheism?

by ros in

jw
friends

a significant number of former jehovah's witnesses come out of the watchtower still believing the bible and considering themselves christians.

most coming out are in a serious state of bewilderment, and they look intently and sincerely for something to fill the huge void of lost religion, lost family and friends, and lost fellowship.

they seek some viable spiritual association with others of like mind while at the same time having become very wary of any organized religion.. what is it that eventually draws so many of us (not me) to agnosticism or atheism?

Sunchild

Larc,

Can there be a reconciliation between the scientific, rational, and even atheist position and the concept of spirituality? I think it depends on how you define spirituality. If if involves spirits, invisible creatures, atheists would say no. If you define spirituality as your core value system in combination with inner sometimes unconscious, motives and fears along with your ability to tap into this "spirituality", then atheists would be more likely accept this concept of spirituality.

From what I've seen, it's not that simple. I acutally started a thread once called "Defining Spirituality." It was a completely open-ended question, and I encouraged people to post their personal definitions, not what other people or sources told them. In my own definition, I made it clear that I thought of spirituality as something you must find within yourself, not in books, not in gurus, not in some external thing you might name "God."

As far as I recall, only one atheist responded. S/he made it clear that in his (or her) mind, spirituality was a concept inextricably linked with the God he no longer believed in, and that it had no place in his life. Even when given the opportunity to state his beliefs free of rules, constraints, or any expectations save that it must be his own personal view, not someone else's, he still linked it to "God," as in some mean old man in the sky. For me, that's a strange way of seeing things, although I do understand how it could happen after being spiritually raped by the Borg. But it doesn't have to be that way if you don't want it to. And not everyone who wanders in here wants it to.

The reason I post stuff like this is to show any lurkers, questioners, etc., who might be feeling spiritually vulnerable right now that fundamentalist Christianity and fundamentalist Atheism aren't the only options, and that they don't have to feel bullied or pressured into accepting either path if it isn't right for them. Having a spiritual life/beliefs doesn't mean that you have to surrender your brain or that others have the right to belittle you for it, and even being an atheist doesn't mean you have to surrender your spiritual life. There's plenty of room for variety and seeking one's own truth, and no one should be denied that chance by people who want to force their choices on others as the only viable option.

I should probably post a mini-thesis on my beliefs about God/dess and spirituality just to clear up where I'm coming from. <g> I'll bet that even then, though, someone will find something there to argue with.

Take care,

*Rochelle.

---------
"Most men complacently accept 'knowledge' as 'truth'. They are sheep, ruled by fear."
-- Sydney Losstarot, "Vagrant Story."

7

Ah, the sweet taste of freedom!

by Sunchild in

jw
friends

today, i did a couple of things that i never would've or could've done had i remained a jw.

first of all, i spent the first half of my day being a promotional model for snapple.

my job: smiling, looking cute, and handing out free snapple drinks.

Sunchild

Today, I did a couple of things that I never would've or could've done had I remained a JW. First of all, I spent the first half of my day being a promotional model for Snapple. My job: smiling, looking cute, and handing out free Snapple drinks. How I got it: I posted my picture on a model/talent search site just for the heck of it, and a placement agency thought I was right for the job. The pay: $124 for basically doing nothing.

And second... since the tryouts were held in the general area... I decided to try out for the game show "The Weakest Link." Long story short, I made the semi-finals! I'll find out sometime in July if they'll be flying me to California for the final interview, but most people don't even make it *this* far. It's incredible. I may yet get my chance to meet my dear "Mistress Anne" in person.

Just wanted to inject a little needed positivity to this message board and let everybody know that, yes, there IS life after the Tower. If I had been a JW and still paranoid like I was back then about "being greedy" and "drawing glory to myself," I never could have taken advantage of these very cool opportunities.

*Rochelle.

---------
"Most men complacently accept 'knowledge' as 'truth'. They are sheep, ruled by fear."
-- Sydney Losstarot, "Vagrant Story."

108

What drives exJWs to atheism?

by ros in

jw
friends

a significant number of former jehovah's witnesses come out of the watchtower still believing the bible and considering themselves christians.

most coming out are in a serious state of bewilderment, and they look intently and sincerely for something to fill the huge void of lost religion, lost family and friends, and lost fellowship.

they seek some viable spiritual association with others of like mind while at the same time having become very wary of any organized religion.. what is it that eventually draws so many of us (not me) to agnosticism or atheism?

Sunchild

Hello again, Jan. And also again, you're trying to find hidden meanings where there really are none.

So, essentially, what you decided to tell the world, was that there exists atheists who are arrogant.

No, I said that some atheists hold the same kind of obnoxious, pig-headed, "Nobody's got the truth but us" kind of arrogance that Xtian Fundies do. In other words, from what I've seen, it's just opposite sides of the same coin. I thought I'd made it plain as day (if in somewhat more delicate terms), but for some odd reason, you want to find something else, and I really don't know what you're looking for. What more do you want me to say? Could you at least throw me a clue?

And you still haven't answered my question. What, exactly, are you trying to prove?

*Rochelle, curious.

---------
"Most men complacently accept 'knowledge' as 'truth'. They are sheep, ruled by fear."
-- Sydney Losstarot, "Vagrant Story."

16

Beauty..Where is it? What is it?

by ISP in

jw
friends

what makes someone 'beautiful' to you?

has it changed over the years, so that you consider something else?

what attracts you to someone?

Sunchild

This question is actually part of the reason why I figured out I'm a lesbian. No matter how I wanted to or told myself I could and should, I could never see past a man's looks, no matter how much I liked him otherwise. Is he five pounds overweight? That's disgusting. I don't want him touching me. Does he look... well... too masculine? Ugly. I don't want him touching me. With a woman, though, looks don't really matter as long she treats me right and we have enough in common. It isn't something I can help, though I tried to for awhile. But I think I'm only about a 5 on the Kinsey scale, not a 6:

Or would it be the Leonardo DiCaprio/Johnathon Rhys Meyers feminine type look that may suggest a caring and affectionate person?

Assuming that Leo has slimmed back down.... I wouldn't really want either of them for myself, but I can't say I'd mind seeing them make out with each other.

*Rochelle.

---------
"Most men complacently accept 'knowledge' as 'truth'. They are sheep, ruled by fear."
-- Sydney Losstarot, "Vagrant Story."

108

What drives exJWs to atheism?

by ros in

jw
friends

a significant number of former jehovah's witnesses come out of the watchtower still believing the bible and considering themselves christians.

most coming out are in a serious state of bewilderment, and they look intently and sincerely for something to fill the huge void of lost religion, lost family and friends, and lost fellowship.

they seek some viable spiritual association with others of like mind while at the same time having become very wary of any organized religion.. what is it that eventually draws so many of us (not me) to agnosticism or atheism?

Sunchild

Jan, I think you might be God. You definitely have a supernatural talent for making mountains out of molehills.

It is atheists who decides what atheists believe. That is pretty obvious.

Even without the subtle condescention of "That is pretty obvious" tagged on, yes, I know that. When I used the dictionary definition, I was only establishing a point of reference, which is pretty much what I was getting at when I told you to take it up with Webster's. If I've offended you in some way by using the dictionary instead of scouring infidels.org for something you'd find suitable, I apologize.

Not really. It would be meaningless if all you really meant was that there exists atheists who are arrogant, just as adherents of any belief systems can be arrogant. You necessarily must have meant something far more with your statement.

I don't know if you read the whole post or not, but I haven't tried to hide anything. Here's the rest of that paragraph again, just for your benefit:

I've also noticed a weird sort of arrogance among some people who embrace Atheism. It becomes more than just an outlook or opinion: it becomes a sign (at least to them and others like them) of belonging to some sort of intellectual elite. Truthfully, it looks to me like the mirror image of the arrogance Christian Fundies have about their alleged monopoly on life's truths.

It means exactly what it says: some -- not all, but SOME -- atheists seem to think that their atheism makes them intellectually superior to everyone else, and they end up showing the same arrogant attitude as Christian Fundies. I thought I had made myself pretty clear. Then you tried to twist my words and apply them to all atheists, which was never my intention:

This is a blanket statement that really cannot be tested.

If I had said that all atheists were as arrogant as Xtian Fundamentalists in their conviction that they alone have the truth, that would have been a blanket statement. But I said no such thing, simply because that's not what I believe. As I told you before, what I meant is what I said. I have no reason to lie to you.

But I will give you a few points for rhetoric here

<g> When I told you to pay attention, I was just playing with you. I've noticed that for some odd reason, you seem to really, really like debating with me, and this little game of cat and mouse between us can be fun. But trying to talk about these things with me isn't the same as debating with Christians. I don't feel any need to try and impress you with fancy words or quotes from famous dead guys to prove that my, uh, "education" is bigger than yours.

To me, this realm -- spiritual stuff -- is strictly a place of opinions, not facts. Yes, I'd like to make myself understood, but I really have nothing to prove to you. What are you trying to prove to me?

*Rochelle.

---------
"Most men complacently accept 'knowledge' as 'truth'. They are sheep, ruled by fear."
-- Sydney Losstarot, "Vagrant Story."

108

What drives exJWs to atheism?

by ros in

jw
friends

a significant number of former jehovah's witnesses come out of the watchtower still believing the bible and considering themselves christians.

most coming out are in a serious state of bewilderment, and they look intently and sincerely for something to fill the huge void of lost religion, lost family and friends, and lost fellowship.

they seek some viable spiritual association with others of like mind while at the same time having become very wary of any organized religion.. what is it that eventually draws so many of us (not me) to agnosticism or atheism?

Sunchild

Peaceloveandharmony,

so for about a year, i've been reading, soaking up a lot of info from these discussion boards and books. and i've discovered that *I*, personally, do not need faith or belief in god/gods/goddesses to live an enjoyable and fulfulling life. i alone am responsible for that.

It's good to have options, isn't it? For me, it wasn't a matter of needing something to believe in; it was a matter of finding a name that fit all the stuff I believed already, without the JW influence.

I first ran across the term Wicca while I was still a JW, surfing the Web and looking at some women's personal Web sites. I read a bit. I read a bit more. And as I read, I felt the most incredible longing, like what I was learning was... the expression of something powerful within myself that I couldn't quite name, but which I longed to explore. Since I was a JW then, though, I squashed it and convinced myself that it was evil. From what I've heard, just about everyone (and I still haven't found the exception) who ends up following a Pagan path says, "This is what I've felt all along. I just didn't know it had a name."

I know you didn't ask for any of this, but I just had to reminisce a bit. Thanks for your patience.

*Rochelle.

---------
"Most men complacently accept 'knowledge' as 'truth'. They are sheep, ruled by fear."
-- Sydney Losstarot, "Vagrant Story."

108

What drives exJWs to atheism?

by ros in

jw
friends

a significant number of former jehovah's witnesses come out of the watchtower still believing the bible and considering themselves christians.

most coming out are in a serious state of bewilderment, and they look intently and sincerely for something to fill the huge void of lost religion, lost family and friends, and lost fellowship.

they seek some viable spiritual association with others of like mind while at the same time having become very wary of any organized religion.. what is it that eventually draws so many of us (not me) to agnosticism or atheism?

Sunchild

Hi, Jan!

An important, but seemingly subtle difference: Atheism is absense of belief in a god or gods.

Atheism: The belief that there is no God.

I lifted the definition right from Webster's New World Dictionary. If you disagree with it, please take it up with them.

This is a blanket statement that really cannot be tested. Are atheists arrogant? Some are, some are not.

Which is precisely what I said. Here's my quote again, word for word, emphasis added:

I've also noticed a weird sort of arrogance among some people who embrace Atheism.

You really should pay more attention.

*Rochelle.

---------
"Most men complacently accept 'knowledge' as 'truth'. They are sheep, ruled by fear."
-- Sydney Losstarot, "Vagrant Story."

108

What drives exJWs to atheism?

by ros in

jw
friends

a significant number of former jehovah's witnesses come out of the watchtower still believing the bible and considering themselves christians.

most coming out are in a serious state of bewilderment, and they look intently and sincerely for something to fill the huge void of lost religion, lost family and friends, and lost fellowship.

they seek some viable spiritual association with others of like mind while at the same time having become very wary of any organized religion.. what is it that eventually draws so many of us (not me) to agnosticism or atheism?

Sunchild

I would like lurking JWs and others to realize--regardless of your own convictions--that these people do NOT represent the Biblical premise of all Christians. To JWs entertaining doubts, that kind of Christianity is NOT the only alternative!

And Christianity itself isn't the only alternative, either.

What I've noticed more than anything is that both on this board and on Atheist discussion boards I've visited (but not posted on since I prefered not to intrude) is the tendency for "God" to always mean the same thing: the exclusively male, demanding, and often cruel Christian deity. Once that deity is abandoned, apparently, so is the very concept of all things spiritual for some. After all, if the one "true" God is false, how can any other concept be useful or valid? Or so the mindset seems to be. I'm inclined to agree with the person here who linked this to a fear of being hurt or duped again.

I've also noticed a weird sort of arrogance among some people who embrace Atheism. It becomes more than just an outlook or opinion: it becomes a sign (at least to them and others like them) of belonging to some sort of intellectual elite. Truthfully, it looks to me like the mirror image of the arrogance Christian Fundies have about their alleged monopoly on life's truths.

Then, there are the ones who take it for pretty much what it is: the belief that there is no God. I've even run across some Neopagan atheists before, so I think it's fair to say that whether or not you believe in a personal deity -- let alone the Xtian one -- has nothing to do with how spiritual you are.

The point of all this? I don't really know. <g> I guess I just felt like pointing out that abandoning Christianity doesn't have to mean abandoning your spirituality, and that being an atheist doesn't mean this, either. You have to find your own path. You have to search your soul until you find what's right for you.

*Rochelle.

---------
"Most men complacently accept 'knowledge' as 'truth'. They are sheep, ruled by fear."
-- Sydney Losstarot, "Vagrant Story."