Welcome, happy@last. I too was surprised to learn (once I dared to read apostate web sites) that there were people who actually conscientiously disagreed with, and could argue Biblically against, Watchtower teachings. It was very helpful to me in liberating myself from indoctrination, which would have taken me much longer on my own. Sadly we can't undo the past and protect our younger selves from people who victimized us, but we can keep our heads firmly fixed forward, on the present and future, so that the past doesn't drag us down. I'm glad to hear you are happy, at last!
Apognophos
JoinedPosts by Apognophos
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41
My introduction/experience
by happy@last ini have only just recently found this site, in fact only recently gone online to do research of my own about jws.
before i left i had only gone on my gut instinct, not even realising i was not alone with my feelings.
the week i was appointed an elder some 11 years ago, i had had to write to a congregation many miles away from me about how unloving they were (more details below).. not long after i started to have concerns about jws, expecially as the message of 'following the bibles message' subtly changed to 'follow the fds', this did not sit well with me.
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what would be their first thought???
by Strawberryfieldsforever ini often wonder about the older "old school" jehovah's witnesses that are up in their 70's and they are losing all their friends they have known most of their lives.
they waited together all those years for the big "a" and it still isn't here.
they are still sitting at the meetings, raising their hands to answer on the same old material and waiting for any tidbit of new information about how close they are to that paradise earth.. i wonder what would be their first thought when the doubt begins to seep in and they have nobody to tell it too....... .
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Apognophos
I've wondered this myself. My grandmother expected the end to come when she became a Witness in the '40s, pregnant with my mother. When she was in her 90s and saw her health declining before the world ended, I wonder if she had any doubts. The thing is, once someone is past a certain age and their brain has become implastic, they don't seem capable of introspection and belief change, therefore I'm not sure they really are capable of doubts either. Armageddon is always just around the corner for them.
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How did you fare in High School as a JW?
by PaintedToeNail infor me it was rather painful.
it was like pressing your nose against the candy store window, knowing that you can look, but you cannot partake.
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Apognophos
I didn't mind being uninvolved in the social scene because I wasn't very socially oriented. I had a few quasi-friends who I hung out with at school, and my mother was even okay with my going over their houses (gasp!). This was because the cong. lacked kids my age and I suppose she was worried that I would become completely antisocial if I didn't at least spend time with some nicer worldly kids. I was never picked on for being a Witness, mostly respected for it, and it helped that I went to school in a posh suburban county with the same kids from K-12.
However, academically, I was seriously underachieving. I wince when I look back at my records. I was never encouraged to think about how my grades would affect my future, therefore I went through school in a sort of apathetic fog. Having to balance homework, service and meetings only made it worse because I often did not find/make the time to complete my homework or study for tests. Of course there was no reason to care about GPA if I wasn't going to college.... I did end up going to a community college for two years, desultorily picking up an associate's degree in a subject I didn't care for because it was the only Witness-friendly subject that came to mind and I had spent no time thinking about what kind of career I could be passionate about -- most of the answers would have been Witness-unfriendly, and what's the point of thinking that far ahead when the world's going to end soon, anyway?
So in hindsight, I don't feel like I missed out on stuff like dates and friends -- I only wish I had thought more about my future and studied harder!
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Favorite JW Urban Legends
by Christ Alone inwhat are your favorite urban legends that you heard as a jw?.
here's mine:.
a brother, through his work, was asked to give a speech to the united nations.
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Apognophos
Yes, I think ArbolesdeArabia and pontoon figured it out.
Ha, it's funny to hear another version of the peanuts-without-chocolate story. Our local version was simply that two sisters were calling on a nice black man when he offered them a dish of peanuts. As they were eating them, he said, "I only like the chocolate coating they come with." It wasn't intended as a cautionary tale when people would relate it in car groups, just as a humorous occurrence, but I suppose it still counts as an urban legend since it was probably made up as a joke, yet the friends believed it really happened.
This one isn't an urban legend but an experience, related to me personally by an elderly anointed brother. He was working on a Kingdom Hall project many years earlier, and a local Bible study showed up, presumably to help. However, while standing next to this brother, she suddenly straightened up and stiffly called out, "Identify yourself!", perhaps a couple times. That was basically the end of the story, because the anointed brother walked away without a word. You see, he felt that the a demon was speaking through the woman, challenging him to identify himself as one of the 144,000. Rather than converse with a demon who no doubt had a sinister motive and validate his own status, he decided not to answer.
In hindsight, it seems pretty clear to me that the woman was probably schizophrenic. The high incidence of schizophrenia among Witnesses/students has been noted many times. She may not even have been talking to him. As I said, the readiness of the Witnesses to ascribe anything they didn't understand (mental illness, fireproof tablecloths, etc.) to demons was part of what awakened me to the possibility that I might be, not in the truth, but in a 'great cloud of [gullible] witnesses'.
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Relationship Issues: Boundaries, Freedom of Choice and Codependency
by 00DAD inrelationship issues: boundaries, freedom of choice and codependency .
i just read a very interesting thought in the book, "boundaries" by cloud & townsend.
the basic problem in human relationship is that of freedom.
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Apognophos
00DAD: Well, "gnophos" is usually translated as "gloom" or "darkness" in Hebrews 12:18. And "apo-" means "away from" :)
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Favorite JW Urban Legends
by Christ Alone inwhat are your favorite urban legends that you heard as a jw?.
here's mine:.
a brother, through his work, was asked to give a speech to the united nations.
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Apognophos
This is a great thread. I remember hearing the UN story when I was a kid and buying into it. Now it comes across as a terribly lazy attempt at an urban legend (why is the brother speaking to the "UN", what does that even mean, why would he mention the UN dissolving religion, and why would someone acknowledge that to him afterward?). Was the person who concocted this even trying?!
The John Denver one was related in my car group a few years ago. I thought it was odd that I never heard that he hated Witnesses and that Carson ordered him off the show. Seems like something you'd hear, right? I Googled it and found the Snopes page discrediting it, and forwarded the link to the brother who was relating it in service. Another time in service, someone tried to tell the "Mr. Rogers was a sniper and had arms full of tattoos under that sweater" one in service, and I shut him right down. I'd been reading my Snopes.com, by this point.
After a while, I had the realization that this utter lack of critical thinking within a group is a sad psychological fact of humans. The Witnesses (and Mormons, and and and...) will believe almost anything when it comes from a friend or the platform, but are ridiculously skeptical of anything that comes from scientists or historians because 'they're a trap from Satan'. It was part of what began to distance me from the religion. One friend related how, as a child, he'd had his Smurfs melted by his mother while he was asleep (so I guess they weren't possessed!... oops). He seemed to understand that his mother was misled by a silly urban myth, but yet as an adult he frowned on Witness kids owning Pokémon cards because they were "spiritistic". Did I mention he was the one relating the John Denver story in service? And so the cycle continues....
P.S.: It's not exactly an urban legend, but on the subject of gullibility, how about a brother I knew who decided that his deceased mother's tablecloth was possessed, and took it out into the family's driveway to burn it while his non-believing relatives watched. And you know what, it wouldn't burn, only smolder! He shouted at it, "Burn, Jehovah, burn!" (his exact words), and apparently, it finally slowly burned. His family was reportedly amazed. Pop quiz: can anyone guess why this family heirloom from the old days didn't want to burn even when he threw some gasoline on it, besides demon possession?
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Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 10-21-2012 WT Study (TRAPS)
by blondie incomments you will not hear at the 10-21-2012 wt study (august 15, 2012, pages 25-29)(traps).
wt material from today's wt will be before comments.
of things and the deceptive power of riches choke.
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Apognophos
In the old days, I would have appreciated the advice about materialism on its surface level -- after all, I like to think that I'm not materialistic, and I don't like people who are.
But today, sitting there, I was able to see the pomposity of the "slave" singing "Don't Worry, Be Happy" while we pay for their expenses. 'Don't focus on having money for the future, just depend on God.' Yeah, don't plan for your retirement, so you can end up penniless like my grandmother who was sure the end was coming in the 1940s and made no effort to plan ahead (thank God her mother built a house before she became a Witness so it could provide some income to the next two generations who did nothing for the future!).
I can also now see all the weasel words that cancel each other out. The article acknowledges that "you may find it difficult to make ends meet" and quotes the scripture in Ecclesiastes that "money is a protection". A protection that we don't need? Nice castle in the air we're building here. I guess money not being something to "struggle" for is why a friend of mine was removed as an elder for not making more money as a freelance artist (and two other side jobs) than his wife made at her part-time bank job. I guess he should have struggled a little more so he could provide for his wife like a good Christian, but not too much more. I mean, they were just barely making ends meet... oh wait, they bought and renovated a two-story house a couple years later.
I was also reminded of how the message about higher education leads to the friends becoming more dependent on each other because of their reduced wage-earning ability. Finally, I appreciate the meaningless comparison between wealthy Witnesses and the man who Jesus asked to sell all his belongings. " Ensnared by riches, that man lost out on a great privilege—that of being able to follow the greatest man who ever lived! Be careful not to lose out on the privilege of being a disciple of Jesus Christ." Because Jesus is going to ask us to sell all our stuff before we follow him? Aren't we already following him, though? Where is the problem here?
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Relationship Issues: Boundaries, Freedom of Choice and Codependency
by 00DAD inrelationship issues: boundaries, freedom of choice and codependency .
i just read a very interesting thought in the book, "boundaries" by cloud & townsend.
the basic problem in human relationship is that of freedom.
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Apognophos
@00DAD: Well said. The problem is that the Society believes strongly in moral and spiritual boundaries, but when it comes to personal boundaries... "What boundaries? We're all brothers and sisters! We're just one big, loving family that lives in one big, loving house with no doors between rooms!"
Good God, could I get on a soapbox about this subject. I grew up with a mother who eavesdropped on me while I was talking to myself (as a lonely little kid is wont to do) only to punish me when she caught me swearing, sifted through my paper trash (and queried me on what minor things of interest she found), peeked in windows at me after pretending to leave the house, and just generally watched my every move. That's what you get when you combine the Witness definition of "boundaries" with the Witness approach to "parenting" and a moderate dose of crazy.
@flipper: You mentioned the elders overstepping in giving counsel. The first time I carried a mike in the Hall, a brother took me aside after the meeting and kindly told me that I should move a little faster down the aisle when someone was called on. Immediately after this, I was lightly counseled by another brother that I had been going too quickly down the aisle. "Well," I thought to myself, "I guess that means I don't have to change anything! Their counsel cancels out!". You guys should give more examples of how the brothers overstepped, it makes for a juicy topic. Here's a couple items a brother in my Hall was counseled on: "Don't wear those socks" (they were slightly too festive); "Don't make so much noise when walking down the aisles" (I never noticed it myself). There were a number of other counsel points that I can't recall or that he hinted at but didn't relate to me.
@Quendi: Very interesting fact from that brother, that both Jehovah and Satan said "please". That sounds like one of those "edgy" brothers who might have an account on this forum ;)
I'll close with a hopefully amusing anecdote from a shepherding call. On one side of the table sat the visiting CO and an elder, and on the other was my mother and I. The CO didn't know me at all before I walked in the door to the back room, but he was determined to be my pal. He asked me if I had any hobbies. My reply? "Yes." A few moments of uncomfortable silence followed. "Uh, good." Then he continued with another line of thought, reading a scripture, or what-have-you. I just couldn't see for the life of me why I should tell this slightly creepy brother what I did in my free time when I'd just met him.
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"Discreet"???
by smmcroberts inin a previous blog i showed why the gb cannot be a "slave".
in that blog i promised to review the rest of their infamous claim of being "faithful and discreet".
that blog is now ready for your consideration:.
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Apognophos
Does it ever bug anyone else that Witnesses pronounce the phrase as "faithful indiscreet slave"? At least where I've been. I grew up wondering why it was good for the slave to be "indiscreet". Is it because they're so bold in preaching?, I wondered. Eventually I read the words for myself in the literature. Then I understood it was being said "faithful 'n' discreet slave", like "rock 'n' roll"....
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Who was the Gilead Student that jumped overboard?
by VM44 ina gilead student from thailand.
a young thai girl who came to new york to attend the gilead school in upstate south lansing, new york, had a mental breakdown.
staff members pleaded with president knorr to send her home by plane, under supervision.
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Apognophos
Rather surprising to see the name Worth Thornton pop up in some of the threads on this forum. We used to meet in his home for the Book Study when I was a child. I didn't know his past at the time, but from his dignified air, I'm not surprised he was a well-known brother. I remember him passing away quite a few years ago.