Apognophos

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Posts by Apognophos

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  143

  A thought experiment about what it means "to be" GOD

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  all believers in god begin with the premise that he is the creator.. but-stop!.

  go back one step.

  what about before god was a creator.. creation is the "beginning" for the created--but--not for god.. .

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  Apognophos

  So then creation would have always existed from his perspective

  That wasn't quite what I meant. I simply meant that God could potentially see the universe as something like a transparent block in front of him. He could see its dimensions, but also see through it from beginning to end in time. The universe's time thus applies to us, but God, being unbound by it, would be able to see the entire flow of time at once.

  If there is NO time, WHEN did God do all this creating?

  Who knows? Perhaps God has his own time, or perhaps he exists in a single moment of creation, knowing nothing else but the universe he created (as you suggested). Kind of depends on where God came from. I can only answer your questions speculatively. Of course, you can only do the same with an atheist model. Where did the universe come from if it was not created intentionally? The answer is outside the grasp of science, so far.
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  143

  A thought experiment about what it means "to be" GOD

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  all believers in god begin with the premise that he is the creator.. but-stop!.

  go back one step.

  what about before god was a creator.. creation is the "beginning" for the created--but--not for god.. .

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  2. 
  3. 
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  Apognophos

  Good question. It seems that our minds (well, I can only speak for myself) tend to insist on a beginning for everything. And of course "beginning" implies that the object didn't exist up until a certain point -- and then it did. Maybe it's foolish to assume that God had nothing to work with when forming the universe. It boggles my mind to try to imagine anything existing forever back in time, but one way or another, it seems that something must have. Whether it was just atoms, or it was God.... Even if we're in a simulated universe, where did the simulators' universe come from? It hurts my brain to ponder it for too long :)

  Scientists have suggested that if one keeps traveling in a certain direction, he may loop back around after a while (the spherical space model). Perhaps, likewise, the end of time is the beginning of time. Perhaps in the distant future, we'll become God and create ourselves! Who can say.
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  143

  A thought experiment about what it means "to be" GOD

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  all believers in god begin with the premise that he is the creator.. but-stop!.

  go back one step.

  what about before god was a creator.. creation is the "beginning" for the created--but--not for god.. .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  Apognophos

  If there was no time before god created it, when did he find the time to do any creating?

  Ah, I understand your question now. You're assuming that God had *no* time within which to act, because time had not been invented yet. I refer you back to "time is what stops everything from happening at once". It is not necessarily a dimension -- in the sense of a space within which to act -- but rather a restraint on the presence of objects. To a god who exists outside of time, all events would probably be visible at once. Likewise, one would expect that such a God would be unchanging from our persepctive. Do I actually comprehend this, on the level of common sense? Absolutely not. Why should I?

  This is not to say that I believe in God. My original point, a few pages back, was that an atheist has to explain how the universe came into existence from nothing if he does not rely on God. E.g., "How did the universe find the time to spring into being?" Either way, the idea of something from nothing is unimaginable to us. Therefore, I don't agree with assertions that one is more likely than the other. It's like an ant ruminating on the nature and scope of the entire planet when he's only seen an acre of it.
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  143

  A thought experiment about what it means "to be" GOD

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  all believers in god begin with the premise that he is the creator.. but-stop!.

  go back one step.

  what about before god was a creator.. creation is the "beginning" for the created--but--not for god.. .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  Apognophos

  Time is a measurement of motion; it describes the arrival of one object at one destination in relation to the arrival of another object at another destination (the second hand of a clock hitting 12 as a train pulls into the station). Time is the length of the path of an electron around a nucleus. Time is a probability eliminator. Time is a separate dimension from the three physical dimensions of space. Time does not exist. Time is the 'y' coordinate. Time is the limitation in spatial omnipresence of an object. Time is what stops everything from happening at once.

  If time (or space-time) was created by God as the fabric of our universe, it is irrelevant to try to connect the principles of time and God. God would exist outside of time and still does. Can we retire that stupid question about God "finding the time" and move onto the corker of all pseudo-intellectual party-trick questions, "Can God create a rock that is too heavy for Him to lift?"
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  29

  10 things that happened in 2012 - my review

  by cedars in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  last year i did a review of 2011 for the forum.

  this was more of a review that focussed on some of the awful stuff that was printed in the literature that year - the first year of my awakening.. 2012 has been more interesting from the point of view of things actually happening outside the literature.

  i thought it might be nice to take a look back and put some of these events in chronological order.... .

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  Apognophos

  Thanks for the review, cedars, I picked an interesting year to wake up! Say, whatever happened to the Anonymous claim that they had the list of reported sex offenders and were working to decode it? Just bluster after all?
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  15

  Jehovah's Pagan Witnesses?

  by smmcroberts in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  recent responses to teeny's "siestas are bad" blog on jwb have seen witnesses defending their stance against birthdays on the basis that the practice has "pagan origins".

  that got me wondering how many things with a "pagan origin" a witness accepts in their daily life without a fuss.

  upon examination it seems they may be nearly as "steeped in paganism" as the religions they condemn.. for the details (and at least one good chuckle) please see my latest blog:.

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  Apognophos

  Yes, exactly. The ring finger is another pagan tradition which, as far as I know, Witnesses have no problem with.
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  38

  After A Day In Field Service, Did You Get Euphoric Or A Spiritual High?

  by ÁrbolesdeArabia in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i know this might sound silly but field service did provide a strange type of good feelings after i was done.

  i called this the "halo-effect" because i felt so "righteous, obedient and good" for taking the weirdos or "the friends" in my station wagon.

  vans and station wagon owners in the congregations often get used hard, pile up seven whacks and your off!

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  Apognophos

  Wow, I haven't seen anyone bring this up in concrete terms before, although I've heard Witnesses imply that they felt good after a day of service. Yeah, I definitely got that high -- I think I still do sometimes (I haven't been going out very often so it's hard to say). As others have said, I once thought it was a reward from Jehovah for doing the right thing.

  Now I think I agree with TS that it was a feeling of sheer relief. Service has actually become harder for me as I've gotten older, not easier. The close-quarters social situation in the car and field service group is tough for me, perhaps moreso than talking to strangers at their doors. So getting to breathe freely again when I get home feels great.

  Interestingly, I noticed when I was younger and would occasionally pioneer that I would regularly get this feeling after a morning spent in service, but the longer service days would drain me to the point where some time after lunch, I would start getting cranky, and when I got home I felt only tiredness, no euphoria. There's probably some science to be done on this phenomenon (maybe it already has).
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  143

  A thought experiment about what it means "to be" GOD

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  all believers in god begin with the premise that he is the creator.. but-stop!.

  go back one step.

  what about before god was a creator.. creation is the "beginning" for the created--but--not for god.. .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  Apognophos

  I don't find this thought experiment helpful, to be honest. High-sounding philosophy aside, it all comes down to which is more likely, that a mind (God) existed before our universe, or something inanimate (a previous collapsing universe, random atoms just sitting around until they exploded, etc.). Either way, the crucial question of how it all got started is beyond the ability of science to grasp at the present time. Saying that our universe came from another universe does not answer the question of where that universe came from. Saying that God made the universe does not explain how God came into being. Either way, the root cause of our existence is fundamentally incomprehensible.

  Considering how well everything came together, it's hard for me to believe that it was blind chance, but as some people are fond of pointing out, this could be Random Universe, Take One Trillion And Four. The previous random universes may have been a disaster, and it's only because we happen to stand in this universe, having not seen any other, that we can say that it seems designed. That reasoning feels disingenuous, as there is no evidence for or against previous universes. Absence some scientific evidence, we can only rely on common sense. Common sense says that things that look designed are designed. This does not require belief in the God of the Bible. I lean towards deism. Some people lean towards simulationism.

  But sitting in an armchair and pondering it cannot get us anywhere. It's a matter that is truly beyond our ken.
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  11

  The Governing Body of Narcissistic Personality Disorder!

  by Terry in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  narcissism is a term of psychiatry.

  how is it defined and characterized?

  the narcissist consider themselves to be unique and can only be understood by other special people.

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  Apognophos

  Very interesting read, Terry! I never thought about how the three especially narcisisstic individuals in WT history were the ones who also set false dates (just like Miller)! Presumably the current GB arrangement makes it harder for a single person to have that much control and cause another embarrassment....
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  158

  Circuit Accounts Servants Confesses how the SCAM WORKS!!

  by JT in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  yes, i too have wondered how an assembly that is held in a fully paid for assembly hall, with no food service, could possibly have $10,000 in expenses.

  i suppose the bethel speakers have transportation expenses - maybe $1000 or so.

  as for rent on the assembly hall, well you have already paid for it once, why pay again?

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  Apognophos

  This is pretty interesting, I never considered whether the convention expense reports were accurate. In all fairness, the money that goes back to the Society is being spent on printing literature and building Halls in poorer lands. I mean, unless someone's caught a GB member washing their Rolls Royce in the parking lot or high-rolling at Vegas.