Not to rain on the exegetical parade, I think it's important to note that (a) the Society has explanations for many of the contradictions mentioned earlier, and (b) talking to a Witness who is a True Believer about the Bible being a collection of books written by different writers is going to be as effective as speaking to him in ancient Greek. It will be easy for the JW to disregard most of what has been mentioned in this thread. Sorry.
Apognophos
JoinedPosts by Apognophos
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35
Does the Bible contradict itself?
by exwhyzee inour old jw friend who is about to shun us says,there's nothing in the bible that contradicts itself?.
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can anyone think of certain scriptures that could prove otherwise?.
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Jan. 1 WT, Their confession for given incorrect dates for the end.
by jam inhave jehovah,s witnesses given incorrect dates for the end?.
jw,s have had wrong expectations about when the end would.
like jesus' first-century disciples, we have "sometimes" (lol).
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Apognophos
Exactly, Emery. JW: "See? The Society has admitted it's been wrong in the past. Look how progressive and humble they are!"
I appreciate the point that people were disfellowshipped over not accepting JW teachings in the past, and that this "apology" illustrates the arrogance in kicking someone out of the congregation over a disagreement (although, to be fair, no one was ever disfellowshipped because they didn't accept an end date, especially not 1975).
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It's all about me.
by smmcroberts inbut it's mercifully brief.. actually, "teeny" sent me.
but i eagerly began posting here without first re-introducing myself.
i realize that could be considered slightly rude.
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Apognophos
Sorry, I just saw your reply the other day, smmcroberts. Did you get my PM in response? I just learned that there is no notification when PMs are received on this forum, so apparently I have to make a public post to tell you there's a private message for you :-) Also, I can't find the message in my Sent folder, so maybe I didn't send it right....
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32
Why are Witnesses so effective?
by Apognophos ini'm sure some of you chuckled when you read the topic, or wondered if this was sarcasm, but i'm being serious.
yes, witnesses number less than one in a thousand, but that's still millions of people.
people like you and me!
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Apognophos
Maybe I should have drawn a direct comparison to other religions in my OP to make my point clear. Imagine you're talking to anyone religious other than a JW or Mormon. They really don't have their prosyletizing act together, do they? And they don't obviously stand out as a Catholic, Buddhist, whatever when you meet them in the workplace. That's the perspective I'm speaking from.
sd-7, you are arguing with my premises from a place of a posteriori knowledge, and as a born-in. I'm talking about why people convert (but again, maybe I should have put that in the topic title to be clearer) and what impresses someone at first glance, not whether it's true or not.
Can't you just sidle up to a convert at the next meeting and just ask them?
Eh, I'm not that sociable :) I'd rather ask you guys. But I knew that my question would raise some hackles, seeing as some of you are angrier about your past experiences than others, and I respect that. Nevertheless, my point was to try to be objective in understanding what attracts people. I'm not sure there's a larger point here or this is just my thinking out loud. I suppose it could be cathartic to some people who are hard on themselves about having become a Witness, or maybe educational for the rest of us.
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Governing Body came to power when/why?
by Apognophos ini've read a little on here about the gb not existing formally until the '70s, and even then not having the top position at first.
something about knorr and f. franz not wanting to give up their own influence?
i just wondered if the eventual transition to a body of men might have been intended to prevent another "1975".
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Apognophos
Ah, sorry about that then. It would be funnier if it were the Society that did that, with their "professional" art department. I didn't mean to poke fun at your work, but I give you credit for owning up to the 'shopping (incidentally, it was mainly Herd that gave it away, his head should be bigger than Losch's since he's in front). Reading the article now, thanks for putting all the hard work into this....
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32
Why are Witnesses so effective?
by Apognophos ini'm sure some of you chuckled when you read the topic, or wondered if this was sarcasm, but i'm being serious.
yes, witnesses number less than one in a thousand, but that's still millions of people.
people like you and me!
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Apognophos
their lack of effectiveness becomes clear as each year passes when their boasting report is published
From a certain standpoint, yes. But they're still growing!
They hardly convert anybody. Most JW's are born-in.
I thought most born-ins left the organization after growing up. Perhaps there's a slowly growing number of JW children, and even though most leave when they get older, others are always getting baptized before eventually leaving?
Anyway, keep in mind that this is not an attempt to congratulate Witnesses and tell them to keep up the good work. I am a born-in who's just trying to get into the mind of a person who converted, to understand what makes the JW message appealing. I daresay that calling converts mentally ill is rather unfair to the members here who are ex-converts.
Edit: Thanks for contributing, Emery. It's very true that studies are made to feel like celebrities! Now that you mention that, I can remember how that seemed to affect them when they first came to the Hall, started giving talks and ministering, etc.
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Governing Body came to power when/why?
by Apognophos ini've read a little on here about the gb not existing formally until the '70s, and even then not having the top position at first.
something about knorr and f. franz not wanting to give up their own influence?
i just wondered if the eventual transition to a body of men might have been intended to prevent another "1975".
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Apognophos
Ah, thanks, I'll read it forthwith! Btw, that top picture of the GB is really funny. They obviously stuck Jackson and Herd in with Photoshop after they joined the Body. They're just popping up in front like, "Hi! We're here to break the laws of perspective!"
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Why are Witnesses so effective?
by Apognophos ini'm sure some of you chuckled when you read the topic, or wondered if this was sarcasm, but i'm being serious.
yes, witnesses number less than one in a thousand, but that's still millions of people.
people like you and me!
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Apognophos
I'm sure some of you chuckled when you read the topic, or wondered if this was sarcasm, but I'm being serious. Yes, Witnesses number less than one in a thousand, but that's still millions of people. People like you and me! I'm not saying that JWs are highly effective, as in "having a high conversion rate", but merely pointing to the fact that they still make converts, after decades of saying the end was near, and putting all sorts of weird requirements on people like door-to-door preaching, giving talks, and not taking blood. Why would anyone find this appealing enough to join? And yet we believed, at one time, and some of us loved our beliefs! Maybe for catharsis' sake, especially for those who converted rather than being born-in, it's worth listing some reasons why Witnesses have such an appealing message for some listeners.
It seems to me that it's all about presentation. Jehovah's Witnesses:
- Are confident in their message. When was the last time that a random religious person confidently spoke of their beliefs as absolute "truth"? There must be something to it, to make them so certain!
- Are clean-cut and seem to have their lives together. "What do they have that I'm missing?" It's not apparent at first that the Witness is projecting this sort of appearance as a necessity, to make their work more effective and to convince themselves that they're happy. JWs put a lot of energy into maintaining this facade.
- Earnestly want you to share their beliefs. We've all met someone who might be right about an issue, but they make it hard for us to want to agree with them because they laugh when we haven't heard of their favorite kind of music or they "can't believe" we're still eating that food that's bad for us. JWs really want others to agree with their beliefs because it's faith-strengthening for themselves, and they're taught to be humble and approachable, so they don't hold their "superior" Bible knowledge over others' heads and are eager to share it.
- Have literature! When was the last time you asked someone about their lifestyle, and they had a booklet ready to hand to you that explains it all with citations (scriptural backup, in this case)? They could also walk you through many of their beliefs from memory. For an intellectually-oriented spiritual person, this is way more appealing than the response an ordinary parishioner can give about their church's beliefs. There's a whole lot of information to process at once, which is impressive and a bit overwhelming for a potential skeptic.
Does anyone want to add anything to the list?
Edit: Apologies, I didn't mean to be in this forum when I created the topic!
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Governing Body came to power when/why?
by Apognophos ini've read a little on here about the gb not existing formally until the '70s, and even then not having the top position at first.
something about knorr and f. franz not wanting to give up their own influence?
i just wondered if the eventual transition to a body of men might have been intended to prevent another "1975".
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Apognophos
I've read a little on here about the GB not existing formally until the '70s, and even then not having the top position at first. Something about Knorr and F. Franz not wanting to give up their own influence? I just wondered if the eventual transition to a body of men might have been intended to prevent another "1975". Franz was able to trumpet 1975 as a special year without much supervision (I suppose Knorr approved his writing, but maybe no one else). Nowadays the President is just a paper-pusher. No one man's name is held above the others in the Society.
Is it possible that they decided after '75 that no one person should be able to have that much influence again, in order to prevent another wannabe scholar from creating a fase teaching that put egg on their face in a big way? Blood transfusions came from that pre-GB-led period too, didn't they? I'm pretty ignorant about the history of this time period, so tell me if I've got it all wrong.
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Yahweh was a Cannanite god Ashtoreth his wife...before the Jews!! Unreal!
by Witness 007 inthis i did not know till recently.
buts a whole new meaning to "let us make man in our image.." no wonder all the kings of israel turned to other gods..
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Apognophos
This is fascinating. I need to do some reading on this. I had no idea about those alternate translations saying Asherah.