Could be. I just figured that the elders who climb the ladder are the ones who are best at saying "Yes" and "Follow the organization", and when they end up in the GB they continue to be propelled along by their own willful self-delusions. To put it another way, I don't think they can distinguish their own initiative from God's spirit supposedly acting upon them. I do think that they sometimes consider things from the point of outward appearance (as Jesus condemned the Pharisees for doing), and I think that they will phrase things slyly, like doctrinal changes, if it will stumble fewer Witnesses. Sorry, I don't mean to derail the thread talking about motives.
Apognophos
JoinedPosts by Apognophos
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52
Is 1914 still relevant in WT/JW Theology?
by 00DAD in) - p. 7 par.
10:12, 13) - p. 20 par.
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Is 1914 still relevant in WT/JW Theology?
by 00DAD in) - p. 7 par.
10:12, 13) - p. 20 par.
- p. 25 par.
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Apognophos
It's hard for me to accept that the GB members are anything more than intellectually dishonest with themselves. I don't attribute malice to them the way some posters do (maybe I'm just naïve). So while I don't see them purposely manipulating doctrine just to push out the weaker Witnesses or to insulate the Witnesses further from the world, I can believe that on some level they will internally rationalize that a certain casualty rate from a change in teachings is acceptable if it makes the "truth" more palatable going forward, since they will be able to "save" more people.
So, for example, should they happen to wake up one morning with "God's spirit" on them and they see a scripture in a new light that indicates that the 144,000 is symbolic or that blood is okay after all, they will know that this "new light" will stumble some believers and numbers will drop in the short-term, but they will tell themselves and others that this is just another cleansing work taking place, as after 1975. The ones who leave just aren't cut out to be worshippers of God -- and they will really believe this themselves. Meanwhile, the religion is now much more likely to attract newcomers who don't have to get over the literal-144,000 or no-blood hurdles in their Bible studies.
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Is 1914 still relevant in WT/JW Theology?
by 00DAD in) - p. 7 par.
10:12, 13) - p. 20 par.
- p. 25 par.
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Apognophos
" While 1919 depended on 1914, 1914 does not depend on 1919."
Is it true that 1919 depends on 1914? I may need a refresher on how they are supposed to be connected. Here's my understanding, in the WTS's own words:
" The small band of Jesus’ brothers spent a short time in such an “abyss” of relative inactivity at the end of the first world war (1918-19). But when Jehovah poured his spirit upon his repentant servants in 1919, they swarmed forth to meet the challenge of the work that lay ahead. As John observes, the release of the locusts is accompanied by much smoke, like “the smoke of a great furnace.” That is how it proved to be in 1919. The situation darkened for Christendom and for the world in general. (Compare Joel 2:30, 31.) The release of those locusts, the John class, was actually a defeat for Christendom’s clergy, who had schemed and plotted to kill the Kingdom work for good and who now rejected God’s Kingdom." -- Revelation--Its Grand Climax At Hand!, chap. 22.
"You may ask, ‘Since religion still exercises great influence in the earth, why does the angel announce that Babylon the Great has fallen?’ Well, what resulted after 539 B.C.E. when ancient Babylon fell? Why, Israel was freed to return to its homeland and restore true worship there! So the restoration of spiritual Israel in 1919 to a radiant spiritual prosperity, which continues and expands to this day, stands as evidence that Babylon the Great fell in that year. No longer does she have power of restraint over God’s people. Moreover, she has come into deep trouble within her own ranks. Since 1919 her corruption, dishonesty, and immorality have been widely exposed. In most of Europe, few people go to church anymore, and in some socialistic countries, religion is regarded as “the opium of the people.” Disgraced in the eyes of all lovers of God’s Word of truth, Babylon the Great now waits on death row, as it were, for the execution of Jehovah’s righteous judgment on her." -- Revelation--Its Grand Climax At Hand!, chap. 30.
In short, the release of Rutherford and company from jail in 1919 marked the fall of Babylon the Great and the granting of power to the slave class. Why would they need to keep the 1914 teaching in order to support the teaching that 1919 marked the beginning of the F&DS/GB?
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Is 1914 still relevant in WT/JW Theology?
by 00DAD in) - p. 7 par.
10:12, 13) - p. 20 par.
- p. 25 par.
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Apognophos
I agree that they don't seem to be trying to phase out 1914, regardless of what we think would be logical. However, are they putting an increased emphasis on 1919 lately? It feels like they are, but I can't prove it.
Edit: Haha, I just noticed that our avatars appear to be relatives, 00DAD.
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Bossert Hotel sold for $81M,,
by Gayle inhttp://therealdeal.com/blog/2012/11/12/chetrit-bistricer-pay-81-million-for-brooklyns-bossert-hotel/.
that is quite a hit.
it had sold a few ago for $100m but that fell through.
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Apognophos
Isn't it interesting that when the Society acquires these luxurious old buildings (I'm thinking of the Stanley Theater too), they pay good money to fix up things that were wrecked? Why bother restoring the ruined marble floor using the original quarry? Worshipping God doesn't require marble floors. Just rip it up and replace it with something cheap. Why replace the old sky projector in the Stanley? I don't get how this helps true worship. It would certainly be smart thinking if you were running a real estate company, though....
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New Light or A More Tangled Web?
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Apognophos
@Phizzy: "What true worship was that then ??????"
The Rutherford kind :-) The "furious at the system for imprisoning him" kind, the "you'll get yours from God soon, you wicked harlot" kind. Anyway, I didn't know that about the Mormons, interesting!
Coming back to the subject of the "uncared-for household", we all know how the Society used to highlight certain groups and individuals -- Tyndale, Wycliffe, the Anabaptists, the Waldenses, etc. -- as if they were the missing links between the 1st century and today. But I was reminded of this, written by Barbara Anderson:
" Subsequently, my careful analysis of the facts convinced Karl [Adams] there was not one generation of true Christians linking to a succeeding generation based on the four points as outlined above. Karl closed this research project by promising this assertion would never again be made, although, to this day, the teaching has not been abandoned. On page 44 of the book, Jehovah’s Witnesses—Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom, the best Karl could say in answer to the question, “What happened to true Christianity after the first century?” was, “True Christianity, then, was never completely stamped out.” Then he said, “Throughout the centuries there have always been truth lovers” and proceeded to list a few outstanding Bible loyalists."
You could say that the GB is simply finally acknowledging what has been known for a long time. Even a cursory read of those "truth lover" articles made it clear that the groups had essential differences in doctrine from the Witnesses who supposedly were modeling their beliefs after 1st century Xianity. Then again, Russell's Bible Students had essential differences in doctrine from Rutherford's Witnesses. And Rutherford's Witnesses of 1919 had essential differences in doctrine from the Witnesses of today! I guess the fact that the GB were okay with taking blood back then was just part of God's plan, so we could be impressed by just how much brighter the light has gotten since then, and they somehow still had God's approval as his F&DS.
P.S.: Is there a proper "quote block" style available on this forum?
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Sisters and the Double Standard in the Hall
by Apognophos in"i do not permit a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over a man, but to be in silence.
" -- paul.
okay, so this means that a sister has to speak to a householder when on the platform, so she isn't addressing us herself and teaching us something.
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Apognophos
@TD: Indeed, another good point!
@blondie: Very interesting, thanks for that info. It's a bit misleading considering that the name of it is Theocratic Ministry School and yet, as you said, it doesn't really train brothers for the ministry, only for giving longer talks, working up to a Sunday talk. No wonder we mostly suck at the door.
Besides the obvious sexism behind not letting women teach at the meetings, I think it's the height of ridiculousness from a logical standpoint for Witnesses who accept the headship principle to still not let sisters read the Bible or Watchtower in front of the congregation. I say this not so much as a feminist but as someone who can't stand listening to most of the brothers who are assigned to read :-) The TMS overseer reads with as much feeling as a dead fish, and then he counsels me in my Bible readings for not having enough feeling, when I'm putting twice the energy into it that he is....
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New Light or A More Tangled Web?
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Apognophos
Well, I assume they're thinking of Rutherford et al. being let out of prison? That was supposed to be the "fall of Babylon the Great" because it meant that B to the G no longer had power over true worship.
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Sisters and the Double Standard in the Hall
by Apognophos in"i do not permit a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over a man, but to be in silence.
" -- paul.
okay, so this means that a sister has to speak to a householder when on the platform, so she isn't addressing us herself and teaching us something.
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Apognophos
@LHG: I saw you mention that issue before. Can you give any examples (anonymized or otherwise) of how the brothers were overstepping? I'm genuinely curious because as a single brother and non-servant, I've never been in a place to observe that happening.
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Sisters and the Double Standard in the Hall
by Apognophos in"i do not permit a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over a man, but to be in silence.
" -- paul.
okay, so this means that a sister has to speak to a householder when on the platform, so she isn't addressing us herself and teaching us something.
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Apognophos
@ShirleyW: Wow. That would be kind of cool. Were there not any baptized brothers in attendance, or how did that come about? Incidentally, I would love to see a TMS conductor flip out one day and assign a sister for a Bible reading, and challenge his fellow elders to show where it's unbiblical to do so.
Edit: In fact, how about getting the sisters up there for some WT readings? After what I had to sit through today, I'm ready for someone who can actually read a single paragraph without making two mistakes, for once. Everyone knows the sisters are better readers anyway....