Posts by Apognophos

43

WT Study Article Nov. 23, 2014--Adam understood "day" to be 24 hours

by Cadellin in

interesting admission in today's wt: adam may have understood "day" (as in "in the day you eat from it, you will positively die") to be a literal 24-hour period.

i don't think the wt has ever said this before; the usual emphasis is that jah meant it as a figurative day, a day from his standpoint which is 1,000 years (and the article does state that, later).. however, if adam understood god's warning to be carried out in a 24 hour period, and god did nothing to alleviate that, then who did the lying?

actually, regardless of adam's understanding, the question still stands but moving toward an admission of the use of day in that context to be 24-hours only makes the question even more valid.

Apognophos

The answer will be "The holy spirit told the writers this information."

20

Biblical Injunction To 'Spare the Rod' And Spoil the Child' or 10 Reasons Not To Hit Your Child

by frankiespeakin in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltoyjvslwgg.

http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/tenreasons.html.

in 37 countries 1 around the world, it is illegal for a parent, teacher, or anyone else to spank a child, and 113 countries prohibit corporal punishment in schools.

Apognophos

A couple of those points are redundant and a couple are much more assertive than is warranted from evidence. Many adults today were spanked as children and do not have anger problems. The statements about spanking causing sexual fetishes and lower back pain sound like something from the 1800s.

However, the rest of the points are well made. Children should not be taught that it's okay to hit someone in order to resolve a problem. This can also provide a model for the view in adulthood that it's only right for God to smite us when we misbehave. The idea that God has the right to treat humans as so much cattle is really just extending the rightfulness of parental spanking to the cosmic level and applying it to God.

I never heard before that Adolf was beaten so hard that he was in a coma. I'd kind of like to see a source for that. It is true that apparently his father was abusive, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if this helped make Adolf what he became. From what I've read about him, he had a seeming lack of feeling towards all adults. This is just a personal theory, but his anger towards the Jews was likely just an outlet for his anger towards people in general. Notably, even as the man who approved the Final Solution, he showed kindness to children and animals, and for a mate he preferred the child-like Eva Braun.

116

Creationist Should Dismiss Genesis Quickly

by Coded Logic in

chris tann,.

in your earlier post you seemed to be under the impression that genesis and science were somehow compatible .

however, the truth is the two are not reconcilable at all.

Apognophos

New thoughts and new ways of thinking can change the distrabution of the dendrites

Now you're just being difficult. The brain does not notably increase in complexity the moment that someone has a complex thought on their mind. If it gets us past this obstacle in the conversation, let's use my example of a computer instead. In either case, we're talking about a network which can contain patterns up to a certain level of complexity.

That was the exact point that I made

Um, right, I know. Did you stop reading my post at that point? If a god exists who is largely mind, or whose body is no more complex than ours is, relative to the "brain", then there is not necessarily a significant difference in complexity between a creator+universe and a universe alone.

43

WT Study Article Nov. 23, 2014--Adam understood "day" to be 24 hours

by Cadellin in

interesting admission in today's wt: adam may have understood "day" (as in "in the day you eat from it, you will positively die") to be a literal 24-hour period.

i don't think the wt has ever said this before; the usual emphasis is that jah meant it as a figurative day, a day from his standpoint which is 1,000 years (and the article does state that, later).. however, if adam understood god's warning to be carried out in a 24 hour period, and god did nothing to alleviate that, then who did the lying?

actually, regardless of adam's understanding, the question still stands but moving toward an admission of the use of day in that context to be 24-hours only makes the question even more valid.

Apognophos

So what happened to the first human race?

Plot twist, they were actually the monkeys.

More serious answer: Don't expect that kind of continuity from Genesis. Some poor scribe had a hard enough time verbally gluing together all those different stories, like two Flood accounts, two Red Sea accounts, etc., in order to preserve and reconcile the hallowed words in the old scrolls he'd been given.

43

WT Study Article Nov. 23, 2014--Adam understood "day" to be 24 hours

by Cadellin in

interesting admission in today's wt: adam may have understood "day" (as in "in the day you eat from it, you will positively die") to be a literal 24-hour period.

i don't think the wt has ever said this before; the usual emphasis is that jah meant it as a figurative day, a day from his standpoint which is 1,000 years (and the article does state that, later).. however, if adam understood god's warning to be carried out in a 24 hour period, and god did nothing to alleviate that, then who did the lying?

actually, regardless of adam's understanding, the question still stands but moving toward an admission of the use of day in that context to be 24-hours only makes the question even more valid.

Apognophos

Not every act of intercourse results in conception, you know.

This is where we need Fred Franz to come back from the grave and speculate on Eve's menstrual cycle for us.

Actually, if you're asking what the real reason is that they didn't have children right away, this touches on one of the most interesting aspects of the first two chapters of Genesis: the two creation accounts depict two different human races being created.

The nameless humans in the story in chapter 1 were created in God's image. Those were the humans who were told to be fruitful.

The nameless humans in the story in chapter 2 were not created in God's image. They were simple-minded, child-like, until they ate from the forbidden tree of knowledge. This version of the human creation story is thought to continue into chapter 3, where they eat of the tree and are then named Adam and Eve because they were now fated to be "dust" and "life-maker".

So the second human race (as encountered in the current form of Genesis; it's actually the earlier, more primitive creation account) was innocent and guileless. It's only after eating the fruit that they became aware of their sexuality. This was knowledge they were not supposed to have.

The first human race was created in God's image, so needless to say, they were not naive and, as intended by God, they knew perfectly well how to make babies.

54

Tower of Babel built by Babies!

by Billy the Ex-Bethelite in

the weekly tms bible reading assignment is not read, or not carefully read, by most of the sheeples.

it doesn't really matter, because the consideration of the bible reading material is one of the shortest parts on the meeting with a limited number of comments, and those comments are restricted to less than 30 seconds or you will get counselled.

over and over, the dubs are told to read the bible, yet the organization gives no real encouragement to read the bible by keeping everyone busy in the recruiting work and using relatively few scriptures in their "talks".. why?

Apognophos

I suppose those stories just refer to human language being confused, and don't mention animals?

43

WT Study Article Nov. 23, 2014--Adam understood "day" to be 24 hours

by Cadellin in

interesting admission in today's wt: adam may have understood "day" (as in "in the day you eat from it, you will positively die") to be a literal 24-hour period.

i don't think the wt has ever said this before; the usual emphasis is that jah meant it as a figurative day, a day from his standpoint which is 1,000 years (and the article does state that, later).. however, if adam understood god's warning to be carried out in a 24 hour period, and god did nothing to alleviate that, then who did the lying?

actually, regardless of adam's understanding, the question still stands but moving toward an admission of the use of day in that context to be 24-hours only makes the question even more valid.

Apognophos

Another interesting point is how they stated that Satan accused God of lying. Actually, Satan never told Eve that God had lied

Actually, I would differ with you on that one point, Island Man. Eve says to the serpent, "God says we will die in the day of our eating it." The serpent says, "You positively will not die." The only way this would not be saying that God was lying is if the serpent knew that God had misspoken earlier. God: "Oh, did I say you would die? My bad, I meant to say you would cry."

But I like your point about Adam not realizing what was going to happen. He definitely was not warned in any way that he would be having children who inherited his curse.

9

HOW will YOU end?

by Terry in

jw
friends

a couple of years back, a friend of mine who is a former baptist preacher (dub horn) began.

visiting a rehabilitation hospital.

the irony of this was not lost on me.

Apognophos

I think about this a fair amount, perhaps too soon since I'm in my 30s. I don't think any of us wants to end up as a near-vegetable for the last years of our life. So if that's the case, why doesn't everyone just "accidentally" fall off a nearby cliff during a nature walk, once they realize they are getting too old to live independently anymore? It seems that we're prevented from doing this by a couple things.

Firstly, I think we come to that point and then we think about family, and we realize that we can't bear to make our children and grandchildren sad. We feel like we owe it to them to keep on living. There's a sort of external will to live that feeds into us through the existence of family and friends.

Secondly, I suppose that when one gradually ages to the point of decrepitude, one's standards for living decline so gradually that it doesn't seem so bad to be in a bed having people care for you, because it's only a small step down from when you lived on your own but could hardly get out of bed, and you had to have every meal either delivered to you or eaten out of a can. Perhaps we'll even feel that we deserve to be doted on and given some end-of-life care, having lived the long life that we did.

As for wanting to tell our story, I think we can do that now, here, or in a book as Terry has. As long as we have sufficient motivation, there won't be anything preventing us from still telling our story up until the day that we can't talk or remember anything anymore. I just think that most old folks honestly don't have a strong desire to tell their story anymore. But look at the ones that do. Hayao Miyazaki, the most important animation director of our modern era, has retired about six times. He's tired and he wants to stop working, but he always comes back to say one more thing. Even now in "retirement" he is drawing a new graphic novel.

I have a feeling that even when it takes a year of lying in a bed to die, that time passes by quickly, especially since many are no longer very mentally active by that time. And age seems to speed up time. I can see the years going by much faster than as a child. I can't imagine how it will be when I'm 80.

54

Tower of Babel built by Babies!

by Billy the Ex-Bethelite in

the weekly tms bible reading assignment is not read, or not carefully read, by most of the sheeples.

it doesn't really matter, because the consideration of the bible reading material is one of the shortest parts on the meeting with a limited number of comments, and those comments are restricted to less than 30 seconds or you will get counselled.

over and over, the dubs are told to read the bible, yet the organization gives no real encouragement to read the bible by keeping everyone busy in the recruiting work and using relatively few scriptures in their "talks".. why?

Apognophos

That's an interesting suggestion that originally animals and man spoke the same language. Just the other day I was wondering about the talking serpent in the Eden account. The account is really saying that all snakes could talk back then, not that one snake was possessed by Satan, as Witnesses will say. So I was wondering to myself, "Why could snakes talk then and not now? Didn't the Jews have any explanation for that in one of their stories?" It seemed like the sort of loose thread that would warrant some kind of explanation, and the Eden account doesn't say that the snake was stripped of its speaking ability.

So perhaps this Babel account originally more clearly stated that the animals could still communicate with men. However, as it stands, the account says "all the earth", not "all of the earth's creatures" or some similar phrase that could refer to non-human animals. I just take it to be a poetic phrase referring to all of human society.

It's actually an odd choice of words, since all humans were living in one little area at this point, post-Flood. If this story is misplaced, though, and belongs before the Flood, it makes more sense. In fact, it makes more sense anywhere else than where it is, such as well after the Flood when there would have been more people for such a project. As you indicated, this part of the Bible is a mishmash of old stories. It's likely that the Babel story was not originally part of some timeline or continuity that included the Flood story, and that's why it's not very compatible with it.

As to what it was that God (or the gods) were afraid of, it was probably just the tower itself, since if it was built up to the firmament, then perhaps it could be used as a siege tower in an assault on heaven. Later religious leaders, in a time where God was (or the gods were) more powerful, might have found this idea of an assault on heaven challenging to the majesty of the gods, and so they distanced themselves from the original premise by having the men say, "We will make a celebrated name for ourselves." The gods then say in response, "If man can do this, then he could do anything, and it's an affront to the gods for man to think so much of himself", thus explaining the language confusion as a punishment for hubris rather than a defensive maneuver in a war between earth-dwellers and heaven-dwellers.

As to who the gods would be, we know that early Jewish culture is in fact Canaanite culture, and initially they shared the same polytheistic beliefs. So the gods would likely be the 70 sons of El (or some later derivative of this belief), as discussed in various places on this forum. See Leolaia's posts here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/165791/1/YHWH-a-minor-pagan-god-Ugaritic-Texts-and-the-Sons-of-El

43

WT Study Article Nov. 23, 2014--Adam understood "day" to be 24 hours

by Cadellin in

interesting admission in today's wt: adam may have understood "day" (as in "in the day you eat from it, you will positively die") to be a literal 24-hour period.

i don't think the wt has ever said this before; the usual emphasis is that jah meant it as a figurative day, a day from his standpoint which is 1,000 years (and the article does state that, later).. however, if adam understood god's warning to be carried out in a 24 hour period, and god did nothing to alleviate that, then who did the lying?

actually, regardless of adam's understanding, the question still stands but moving toward an admission of the use of day in that context to be 24-hours only makes the question even more valid.

Apognophos

Yes, it's stunning to realize that "the father of the lie" didn't actually lie here at all.

Reading it as the folk tale it originally was, it seems that Yahweh threatened to kill Adam as a bluff in order to keep him away from the tree, and the serpent merely told Adam and Eve the truth about the tree and encouraged them to call his bluff.