Gamaliel

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Posts by Gamaliel

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  8

  The Site is Going Down!!!

  by BereanThinker7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  so i'm sure many of us here have used the site https://ad1914.com/, apparently the domain had expired.

  this site was instrumental to my waking up.

  i have been able to use it to direct others to as well since it had a large collection of matters dealing with the validity of the "gentile times" claim.

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  Gamaliel

  The site appears to be back up and running.
  
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  48

  WTBS' Financial Empire...the tip of the iceberg!

  by MacHislopp in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  watchtower bible & t

  watchtower bible & t

  watchtower bible & t

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  Gamaliel

  BTTT

  With the sale of so many Brooklyn buildings, thought this becomes interesting all over again. (Also, MacHissop, fantastic post, well supported by other posts here too. I think the only thing that didn't make sense to me was the estimated value of all the properties. I think you had an extra three zeroes in your examples. Removing them puts it more in the order of magnitude of the recent sales.)
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  7

  Clayton Woolworth Letter From Jail

  by Bangalore in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  bangalore.

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  Gamaliel

  Bangalore,

  Thanks. I enjoyed that. Where'd they come from?
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  501

  Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

  by Dogpatch in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  having problem pasting this...

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  Gamaliel

  Terry,
  
  Good to hear from you again.
  
  You said: "I lost track of Becky after she married Tim and I heard that later they had divorced."
  
  That was a sad marriage. I liked Tim, and had gone to school with him, but I remember having to threaten to come back to Missouri to smack him around a bit, if he didn't stop abusing my sister. It must have sounded even scarier since, at the time, I was deemed disassociated and was therefore on the side of the "demons". (I was told later that our "DA" letter wasn't filed in the Service Department, but was held back privately by brother Fred Rusk, because he was sure we'd change our mind. I'm pretty sure he actually did this more out what he thought was Christian love for his "daughter", my wife, since he was the one who studied with her to bring her to baptism.)
  
  I think my Dad's eyes were opened up a bit when the Society's policies about a woman putting up with an abusive husband hit a little too close to home. He followed the Society line at the time, which puts too much onus on the wife to accept a lot of abuse and accept Bible counsel to be patient, keep trying to work things out, attend more meetings, pray more, and step up your field service. My Dad was an elder on the case, and later apologized to Becky for not seeing her side clearly enough.
  
  You also said: "Warren was quite a bit older than I and I am not quite sure when he left, I just remember that he went to Bethel. I remembered when Greg quit school and left to pioneer and later also to Bethel. Even at the young age of about 13, I was thinking why, as I remember Warren & Greg as being so intelligient & thinking what a waste."
  
  Warren is only two years older than I am, and only about 7 years older than Becky. But Warren was already many years out of my league when it came to his understanding of business and electronics and music and anything else he put his mind to. I think his first job out of high school was fixing radios and eight-track tape players at some company while I was learning to make pizzas at Pizza Hut. He had already moved out on his own and started a business that hired many local JWs in Jeff City by the time I was ... well, still making pizzas. He could play lead guitar in a band, and sound a bit like Jeff Beck, Pete Cetera, Jimmy Page, etc while I played...harmonica! He could even jam with the local blue-grass crowd if he wanted when he was into the Leo Kottke and 12-string sound.
  
  The only advantage I had over Warren, was that I had a head-start in finding out some amazing things about the JW religion by reading all the old books from 1876 and onward, and learning a lot more from a couple friends in the Writing Dept at Bethel. I wanted Warren to come to Bethel, because I knew he would understand quickly what was really going on behind the scenes. I didn't know it would get "dangerous" so quickly, but I knew I wouldn't have to tell him a thing for his world to change. I was sure he'd see right through the JW mindset as soon as he could also compare local reality with the global hype.
  
  My lack of education didn't hurt me none. I was still 15 when I quit school to pioneer, but I had taken the GED just a few months later, so I was situated to go right into college when I left Bethel.
  
  Marie and I have been married 28 years, and we have three great kids. Two are just now graduating from college themselves, and my youngest is 15 now. You also asked about "Mom and Dad". After a decade of religiously practicing the silent treatment against us, they have for more than 10 years now been treating us much more like real parents and grandparents would. The first time they came out to see us they stayed outside near the driveway. More recently they've actually stayed with us several times, and just happen to be staying with us right now for several days -- for the second time this year. Last year they came with us on a two-week Carnival cruise to Rome, Greece, and Turkey with a few extra days back in Rome before going up to see Becky (and family) in Denmark. They love to travel. They've recently been to Russia, China, Egypt/Israel, Caribbean. We might even join up with them for an Alaskan cruise in a year or two.
  
  My wife's father died before we were married and her mother died shortly after. So for the kids and their grandparents, I say, better late than never.
  
  How are things with you?
  
  Greg
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  501

  Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

  by Dogpatch in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  having problem pasting this...

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  Gamaliel

  Ah, yes...from the old "Oklahoma" song "Farmer and the Cowhand Should Be Friends"
  
  Instead of parodying the "Construction and Home Crew Should Be Friends", they could have done one like this: (the original is on the right and mine is on the left, for those unfamiliar with the musical.)
  
  

  Oh the GB and the 'postate should be friends Oh the GB and the 'postate should be friends One man likes his Watchtower fame The other likes Peter, Paul and James But that’s no reason why they cain’t be friends Commentaries, folks, shouldn’t be forbidden. Commentaries, folks, should not be banned Albert Barnes was not so far off Matthew Henry’s still in demand I’d like to say a word fer the GB -- He likes it best without a lot of changes For comfort he loves lots and lots of fences So many they criss-cross the Bible’s pages! Oh the GB and the 'postate should be friends Oh the GB and the 'postate should be friends The GB, like old Popes, decrees: Bring those 'postates to their knees But that’s no reason why they cain’t be friends I’d like to say a word for the 'postate The road he treads is difficult and stony He reads for days on end And knows he might lose all his friends At least they might feel sorry at the "stoning"! Oh the GB and the 'postate should be friends Oh the GB and the 'postate should be friends One man likes his Watchtower fame The other likes Peter, Paul and James But that’s no reason why they cain’t be friends

  Oh, the farmer and the cowman should be friends, Oh, the farmer and the cowman should be friends. One man likes to push a plough, The other likes to chase a cow, But that's no reason why they cain't be friends. Territory folks should stick together, Territory folks should all be pals. Cowboys dance with farmer's daughters, Farmers dance with the ranchers' gals. I'd like to say a word fer the farmer He come out west and made a lot of changes He come out west and built a lot of fences, And built 'em right across our cattle ranges. Oh, the farmer and the cowman should be friends, Oh, the farmer and the cowman should be friends. The cowman ropes a cow with ease, The farmer steals her butter and cheese, That's no reason why they cain't be friends I'd to say a word for the cowboy-- The road he treads is difficult and stoney He rides fer days on end With just a poney fer a friend I sure am feelin' sorry fer the poney! Oh, the farmer and the cowman should be friends. Oh, the farmer and the cowman should be friends. One man likes to push a plough, The other likes to chase a cow, But that's no reason why they cain't be friends.
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  501

  Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

  by Dogpatch in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  having problem pasting this...

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  Gamaliel

  Frank,
  
  Your story rings so true. I don't have those kind of first hand personal experiences with GB members. But all the second and third hand discussions make a perfect fit to what I've heard.
  
  I rarely interacted with any GB except for Gangas and Schroeder (whom I saw and spoke with regularly). I only had fairly brief conversations with Ray Franz, Ewart and Swingle and an exit interview with Sydlik.
  
  I interviewed Fred Franz for nearly an hour on tape to gather "Bethel experiences" for a public talk I was preparing. Unfortunately that was when I was too much of a naive newbie. In a follow-up on that first interview I once asked him about a mistake in a footnote of a Book Study book we were studying, and he seemed to know all about it and became a bit defensive of the mistakes. That shook me a bit, because although I was only focusing on the incorrect footnote he had correctly understood that I was being critical of the entire tenor of that section on Watchtower Society history. He said something like: "But this is what the publishers need right now." (At that moment he was defending why we would study the same book a second time - not directly related to the mistakes in the section.) What also struck me at the time is how he seemed separate himself from "the publishers".
  
  If I had known for sure about Ray Franz's position on certain Bible doctrines I would have loved to speak at length with him. I ended up have a fairly long conversation with Swingle once on the great value I saw in those articles they were running (at the time) on the Sermon on the Mount because they treated it like a verse-by-verse commentary but still kept the overall context of the entire chapters in mind. He sent me right in to talk to JimNapolitano, not saying that JN wrote the articles I liked, but telling me he was working on other articles like it. I would have sworn at the time from things LSwingle said that LS would have been the first GB member to get booted for apostasy. (He said he liked these types of articles too, but also said "some of us aren't used to them yet", rolling his eyes over to a specific office to his left show he meant someone else specifically.) But then again, Swingle could get away with oddly phrased ideas. The very first thing I ever heard Swingle say at Bethel, on my second day, was "Yeah! Sure this elevator is coming, and so's Christmas!" Except he didn't say it, he growled it loudly, and with convincing anger. Then, on the elevator he immediately told some joke timed perfectly to end by the time we got to the bottom floor.
  
  One of the other writers told me a few experiences he had with multiple childish tantrums of at least one member of the GB. One came in with a book that had just been bound for release at the next assembly. He slammed it down on this writer's desk (R.L.'s desk) with full force for maximum "slam" effect, and then voiced his complaints for half the floor to hear.
  
  RLengtat also told me about how silly a demonstration given by Karl Klein at breakfast was. One morning Karl decided to show just how humble a person in the Writing Department had to be. He showed into the camera a page or two of a manuscript that had been edited so heavily with pen marks and changes that you could hardly recognize the original. Later RL told me that this was hardly the case at least for any article he ever knew about. He said that FFranz's work was pretty much treated as sacrosanct. Then he gave me a "funny" example of what happened for Watchtower subject articles that he was asked to write. He said that he decided what he wanted to say first and often never drafted or typed until he had the whole article in mind, and then just typed it up exactly as he wished it to appear. Very often there was never a single editor's/proofreader's mark. One time when one of the Writing Committee members (or maybe it was another writer) complained about a manuscript article, it was a more vague complaint. He said, "No problem", and just matter-of-factly tore it up down the middle in front of the complainant's widening eyes and a dropping jaw. He just redid a new one on the spot. RL told me something like: There's always more than one way to say the same thing.
  
  Greg
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  501

  Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

  by Dogpatch in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  having problem pasting this...

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  Gamaliel

  Cathy, you had a question about which GB members went out in service:
  
  I don't think any of us can speak for anyone else. I attended the Brooklyn Heights Congregation every Tue & every Thu and many Sundays (unofficially) as preparation for my assigned congregation in the Bronx (Wed, Fri, and Sun pm). I hardly ever missed a meeting in either congregation (except B.H. on Sunday am), mostly because I had some very good friends in the Brooklyn Heights Congregation (not just Bethelites) that I also spent time with on weekends.
  
  About 5 GB members, maybe more, attended the B.H. Cong., and they were sometimes there, but never regularly. We would just assume they were busy on some important Society matters. The B.H. Cong was also overloaded with other Bethel elders, some "heavies". There were a few Bethel elders (e.g, Bro Malone) who were very active in the congregation, including regular field service, conducting TMS, the Book Study, etc. But no GB member had any regular assignment like that. It was not expected that you would see them but once every few weeks at best, and ONLY for the Thursday meetings (TMS/Svc Mtg). No Book Study attendance, and on weekends, it was even more rare, and you would assume that they had been invited to give a talk somewhere else in the world. I know for a fact that this assumption was false in some cases, but it was obviously true a lot of the time, too.
  
  It's not directly related, but I went in door-to-door service with Fred Rusk (Writing Dept), and he admitted to me that he was a bit rusty and that I should take every door. I assumed he was just there to test if I gave out apostate literature when someone appeared interested. But whenever he did chime in, he really did sound a bit rusty.
  
  Greg
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  501

  Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

  by Dogpatch in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  having problem pasting this...

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  Gamaliel

  How did they ever get so paranoid that a Bible commentary was outlawed? What would be next, keeping average Bethelites out of the Bethel library??
  
  I forgot the guy's name on 1-8. I thought he worked for Wheelock or Songer. I think he was the same one who nearly got himself ousted for growing a beard. We requisitioned our commentaries through him at excellent prices. Got Barnes. Got Matthew Henry 3 vols. Got a Hebrew-English Interlinear of the OT in 3 vols. And then his beard threatened to ruin the whole thing for everyone. :{>
  
  All this fuss about commentaries. Meanwhile Bert Schroeder loaned me his Barnes commentaries, along with a lot of other commentaries and references, any time I wanted right up until my last week at Bethel in 1980. He even recommended Barnes as one of the best. Even Stan Milosevic's theocratic library (someone gave a link previously) has a lot of things in it that would have raised eyebrows in 80 and 81. I wonder what the stance is now on such things.
  
  And after someone like GStafford or RFuruli starts seeing the inevitable, what do JWs do with their once-theocratic publications? (RFuruli still has a couple years to go. I think he's already working on his next book, "Oslo Chronology, Plan B", which supports the 2,520 years by trying to poke holes in the accepted secular chronology which claims "World War I" started in 1914. He will show that, even if you accept 539 (and therefore 587 as pivotal), "World War I" may have actually started in 1934, but that several mistaken and/or conspiratorial encyclopedia and calendar publishers have managed to change times and seasons on us.)
  
  Greg
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  501

  Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

  by Dogpatch in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  having problem pasting this...

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  Gamaliel

  Tom,
  
  On the origin of "G-Job" I don't know the true origin but the following looks about right:
  
  I'm picking and choosing from someone's comment on another site/forum: http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/episodes/g-job/page-1/post-261/
  
  "I worked as a contractor on many military and government projects and when government projects had “deep pockets,” there were always more workers than needed on a job. Many workers had lots of time on their hands and so would pursue their own personal projects or fabricate things related to their particular area of expertise (electronics for example). When anyone referred to these projects it was called a “G Job” which was short for “Government Job”, a sort of cross between a cynical remark and a code word for those who didn’t know any better such as a new “green” boss or a family member or friend. I suspect that this phrase was more common in the 50s to 70s when a lot of government money was available..."
  
  The above idea seems pretty reasonable, but maybe there's another angle on it, already implied. Government jobs are notoriously the most easily "abused" jobs. "G-men" always had a lot of freedom to act like they weren't really on the job. When you want to get a fellow politician in trouble you can always find out that they once picked up their son from soccer in a company car, or found some busy-work for the maintenance men by having them work on the boss's personal house or boat. Government jobs are often so poorly managed and supervised that people can pull off multiple full-time salaries. Lawyers for school systems in NY & LI have been recently caught billing up to 5 simultaneous full-time salaries from multiple school systems and had managed to hide it for many years.
  
  The problem with all of the above is that the actual "Government Job" is what allows for outside jobs. You are asked to assume that the phrase later got tacked on to the outside job only, and not the actual primary job.
  
  Greg
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  501

  Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

  by Dogpatch in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  having problem pasting this...

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  Gamaliel

  Randy,
  
  You asked for some of the money management tricks for living at Bethel on the 50-cent-per-day allowance. (We got our subway tokens separately to get up to our respective assigned congregations. But tokens were only something like 25 or 35 cents back then.)
  
  Funny how I never even noticed how poor I was. They gave me 4 years seniority for pioneering right off the bat and I guess I thought that was the primary medium of exchange.
  
  Was it Drew Wasco who stamped people's names on the cover of a deluxe NWT for a few bucks?
  
  There was sometimes a small "green handshake" when you gave a public talk in another congo. I never got much more than travel expenses, but never thought to turn it down, either.
  
  For a car to use, I started a Bible study with a nice family in the Bronx, and borrowed theirs a couple of times.
  
  Some bros would use the photography equipment and the darkroom on off-hours to handle wedding photography, enlargements, etc. I never thought that was right at the time. But I know there were a lot of money-making opportunities, especially for construction trades.
  
  One thing that worked for me was to invite my brother Warren to sell all his belongings (including part of his business that went for several thousand as I recall) and come on up and "share" in the good work going on at Bethel. After that, I got all the Breyer's ice cream pints (from the commissary) that a young guy could hope for.
  
  Greg