Posts by Gamaliel

83

Should I continue to support Bill Bowen?

by Gamaliel in

jw
friends

to whom it may concern, .

i have contributed financially to the cause of silentlambs.org and have, to a smaller extent, even promoted the website.

it is difficult enough to fathom the depth of hurt heaped on humankind, but impossible for me to understand how such suffering can be compounded with injustice, as i read experiences on silentlambs.org.

Gamaliel

RevMalk,

as far as I know silentlambs is going in that direction and more. We're setting up a legal section on the site (right now the link points to Kim Norris' page), and we're also setting up a section for a very prominent psychologist. She'll be able to answer questions online, and there will be a 'ask me' section, where she will answer questions that are posted to the public as well. Also, as far as I know a network of psychologists are being set up. Also, like I said before silentlambs is expanding

Thanks. That's what I needed to hear. I just read about the Norris/Love class action suit. If they were to win, have they (or others) pledged funds back into the "cause." It should be a no-brainer for them if they think that an initial win could leverage another one. The investment in the website could help provide more leads and ammunition.

The last post he made on the subject was November 6th, 2 weeks ago.

It was actually closer to three days ago. On Sunday, overnight, he repeated all the same ideas to Channel C, a place he doesn't post to, and where such posts are expressly not permitted. You can hardly imagine how "out of place" this post appears among the other subjects for discussion.

http://www.channelc.org/cgi-bin/eboard30/index.cgi

Also you are very generous in your defense of Bill, but most of those issues have been covered. Just a couple of points I hadn't heard before:

A person comes on this board and states an opinion that may be based in fact, and everyone tears him to shreds without even giving him the benefit of the doubt.

I gave Bill the benefit of the doubt. I wrote Bill and I called Ray. I no longer have any doubt. I wouldn't be so concerned if I could still give Bill the benefit of the doubt. I know now that there are a lot of people, myself included, who are holding back evidence to avoid unnecessarily hurting a cause that might still be salvaged.

Who in the hell is Ray Franz?? He wrote a book, now two, made alot of money, your money. Did he ever donate any of that to victims of Watchtower abuse? I think not. Has he done one thing even remotely close to what the silentlambs cause has done? I think not. He's no God people,

I can see you have never visited with him. I have. I'm guessing that you didn't just make this up, so someone has surely lied to you. But it's also hard to believe you didn't have the honesty to question even a potential lie before using it, unverified. Many people can testify that you didn't verify it, because I happen to know other people on this board who have visited him. But it's also evidence that you have blind faith in whoever lied to you. Perhaps now, by extension, you can understand better why I am as worried for the victims as I am for Bill.

Gamaliel

Edited by - Gamaliel on 20 November 2002 12:25:4

Edited by - Gamaliel on 20 November 2002 12:25:50

Edited by - Gamaliel on 20 November 2002 12:30:32

83

Should I continue to support Bill Bowen?

by Gamaliel in

jw
friends

to whom it may concern, .

i have contributed financially to the cause of silentlambs.org and have, to a smaller extent, even promoted the website.

it is difficult enough to fathom the depth of hurt heaped on humankind, but impossible for me to understand how such suffering can be compounded with injustice, as i read experiences on silentlambs.org.

Gamaliel

Dutchie,

You said:

I know that if I were being torn apart in thread after thread on discussion board after discussion board day after day, I could not bear up under the stress and would have to check myself into a psychiatric hospital.

That's exactly my concern for Bill, too, Dutchie!

Using the terms we use at work, when there is a potential breakdown of a server, we need some kind of "failover;" we need "high availability." An alternative should be ready and waiting. (Of course, I'm not talking about just the hardware.) I agree that the new website for silentlambs looks great. Everyone who wants to should contribute. After some of the things said here, especially about financial issues, I may continue to contribute. Maybe that will take some of the stress off Bill.

You also said:

My what a big heart you have. You are worried about everyone involved. Do you have any suggestions or proposals to make things better?

I don't know if my suggestions or proposals are any good. I know that I have been too passive with this particular issue, because frankly, I didn't know about it among the JWs. My wife and I have children, and have also been working with many JWs/xJWs for several years, now. Now that I think back, it's possible some of these people we've worked with may have been abused in many more ways than we first suspected. I'm just now starting to learn more about helping victims of sexual abuse. Our focus has been primarily to encourage xJWs to start getting along in life without excess concern over JWs. It's enough of a problem getting settled, getting a job, getting an education. We do try to "act" like Christians, ourselves. I believe deeply in the Christian ethic, but am too skeptical to preach the full belief system. My wife has the faith, but we were both already burned out from the preaching game when we were JWs. If you are atheist, agnostic, believer, or (yikes!) fundamentalist, it doesn't matter.

I don't think there's anything wrong with setting up an organization, and I don't think it has to "Christian" to be effective. Of course, there are drawbacks to effectiveness when you are not honest, but I can see a use for some types of "dishonesty." (Gamaliel is not my real name, for example. )

Did you suppose that your coming here and posting for the umteenth time what has been posted before would somehow remedy the constant bickering?

No, and I really don't mind the bickering. Also I'm seeing much less of it [crossing fingers] so far. Bickering is not productive, but it's part of the subculture we've come to expect on such forums. The fear that the WTS would point to this to make a mockery of exJWs might be tempting to them, but I think it would backfire. It would give average JWs, who wouldn't otherwise get here, the excuse to come to look at our "Gehenna." There is too much danger of JWs finding a diamond in the rough, or a pearls among swine.

83

Should I continue to support Bill Bowen?

by Gamaliel in

jw
friends

to whom it may concern, .

i have contributed financially to the cause of silentlambs.org and have, to a smaller extent, even promoted the website.

it is difficult enough to fathom the depth of hurt heaped on humankind, but impossible for me to understand how such suffering can be compounded with injustice, as i read experiences on silentlambs.org.

Gamaliel

SLOAN,

I hope no one has a personal vendetta against Bill. Bill has definitely given the impression in writing that a lot of people have a kind of vendetta against him. He especially seems to go after the "published xjws" -- saying they even have a war against him. I know that Ray Franz bears him no ill will at all, because I spoke to him about it. Even if someone doesn't like Ray, they still only have to call him up and in a few seconds they will know that Bill is wrong about this claim. Also, just because I personally don't like what Bill is doing now doesn't mean I don't still want to help Bill. You said to RevMalk:

People just DON'T get it do they!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hurt all the victims just because they hate Bill or because they have a personal Vendetta against him. It's sooo sad!

When we were JWs on our way out, we were told that absolute loyalty meant never speaking out against the wrongs of the WTS. But we knew that true loyalty meant that we absolutely should speak out when we see danger. True, for a while we give them the benefit of the doubt, or waited on Jehovah, or thought of it as just a "phase." But sooner or later we will speak out if we are truly loyal to those we think might be hurt.

What may appear to be hurting the victims may actually be helping the victims. If Bill takes the site down and can no longer provide the organizational support, I think someone should be thinking of a back-up plan. I was pretty sure there were already some back-up plans in place.

Gamaliel

83

Should I continue to support Bill Bowen?

by Gamaliel in

jw
friends

to whom it may concern, .

i have contributed financially to the cause of silentlambs.org and have, to a smaller extent, even promoted the website.

it is difficult enough to fathom the depth of hurt heaped on humankind, but impossible for me to understand how such suffering can be compounded with injustice, as i read experiences on silentlambs.org.

Gamaliel

Pistoff,

First off, I like your name. I was thinking of "Ivan Pistoff Sonavovich" for myself and saw you already had the best part of that name.

You make some very good points:

To me this is so much like what I did as a witness; if I think any little thing is not right, I walk away, and the world just does not work well that way.

I noticed how much I sounded like a JW all over again when I was wrote: "I would be knowingly supporting..." It takes more than just the years to get this stuff out of our mind.

I guess I just needed it validated that silentlambs is growing beyond being too closely tied to one person. From what I can tell, Bill may use some other names, too, but takes the name "silentlambs" to put this same message on at least three websites in the last couple weeks. Dutchie, avishai, and RevMalk have also said some things that made me think more about Bill is going through. Not that what he's going through isn't exactly what makes me worry, however.

Gamaliel

83

Should I continue to support Bill Bowen?

by Gamaliel in

jw
friends

to whom it may concern, .

i have contributed financially to the cause of silentlambs.org and have, to a smaller extent, even promoted the website.

it is difficult enough to fathom the depth of hurt heaped on humankind, but impossible for me to understand how such suffering can be compounded with injustice, as i read experiences on silentlambs.org.

Gamaliel

Prisca,

Thanks for the welcome. I agree that there are many organizations to choose from. I let the United Way take a percent of my paycheck but I really don't even have a feel for why. Probably because the boss had a campaign once to get 100% participation in United Way a few years ago and I'm too apathetic about UW to change it. But I am allowed to just add my own charity in place of UW if it's a legit one.

It's just for my own reasons that if I pick another charity I'd like to know that they can understand JW and exJW issues. A friend just told me about one that handles exJW issues as a kind of "post traumatic stress disorder."

My anger is mellowing out a little now. I may have made myself sound too harsh with the title of the thread. It's true I'm worried, because it's not hard to imagine a scenario where this little problem is treated like an obsession and Bill sets himself up for a burnout trying to defend an untenable position.

I think a lot of us realized the value of Bill's work, there seems to be nothing else quite like it, and we have therefore put all our eggs in one basket. Is the silentlambs organization set up so that people requesting support can be helped in case of an unexpected illness or incapacity?

Can folks be directed to an organization knowledgable of their specific problem so that they feel comfortable? Can silentlambs be expanded to include legal counsel? What about trained investigators? I've heard that even volunteers can train to become case investigators if they work under the aegis of a reputable organization.Gamaliel

83

Should I continue to support Bill Bowen?

by Gamaliel in

jw
friends

to whom it may concern, .

i have contributed financially to the cause of silentlambs.org and have, to a smaller extent, even promoted the website.

it is difficult enough to fathom the depth of hurt heaped on humankind, but impossible for me to understand how such suffering can be compounded with injustice, as i read experiences on silentlambs.org.

Gamaliel

Iwasyoungonce,

I appreciate what you said. Sounds like you share a lot of the same feelings.

Just from pretending that just because it is done to a Jehovah Witness by a Jehovah Witness that it is somehow more henious than of it were done by a Catholic or even a non religous person.

I agree that it isn't fair to the rest of the world to treat JW issues as if they are all-important. Still, with so many friends, former friends, family and loved ones still inside, I tend to think of them a lot. Maybe I shouldn't, but I can't help it. I still have fond memories of those old days along with the reality check.

In the real world there are so many good charites and organizations that anyone can join. I think that if you are sincere in wanting to donate money to worthy causes you will find them. And maybe you will consider joining in making a better world for us all. I know that I do.

My wife was always a bigger charity giver than I was. She got in trouble for it when we were JWs before we got married. They wanted her to stop giving to all charities, but the one they took special exception to was the Veterans of Foreign Wars. She still gives checks to about a dozen major charities (VFW included) and every November/December we are flooded with at least 100 charity envelopes reminding us of how we are "loved."

For me, I'm more of a skeptic about charities, but silentlambs seemed like the perfect charity for an exJW. It seemed to "kill two birds with one stone," meaning that it did some real good for victims while putting the WTS on notice at the same time.

I no longer talk about the site as I talked to everyone a few months ago.

Exactly. I was talking to a long-time JW acquaintance this week who is currently going through judicial hearings. He's not a victim of abuse, but I mentioned the silentlambs site to him because I thought he should be more aware of the WTS underbelly. Actually, I offered to give him one of Ray's books, which I think would be more suited to his style, but he's afraid of repercussions if he's caught with the book, so I needed to point him to a website and mentioned freeminds.org and silentlambs.org. As of today, I'd be afraid he'd lose interest if he gets a whiff of the bickering.

Gamaliel

83

Should I continue to support Bill Bowen?

by Gamaliel in

jw
friends

to whom it may concern, .

i have contributed financially to the cause of silentlambs.org and have, to a smaller extent, even promoted the website.

it is difficult enough to fathom the depth of hurt heaped on humankind, but impossible for me to understand how such suffering can be compounded with injustice, as i read experiences on silentlambs.org.

Gamaliel

nancee park,

Bill has told the hard truth. So did evidently did Ms Pat Garza when she said Ted Jarasz of the Gov Body molested her when District Overseer in L.A. since he has not denied what she has publicly stated. Is this what you mean?

I never liked Jaracz, not that I met him personally. He seemed to be about the coldest, stuffiest GB member around back when I was in. On one hand, I hope this wasn't true for the sake of Pat Garza. But then again, if something like this happened, I would hope no statute of limitations or any glitch gets in the way of justice. I admit I find the story amazing, but who knows? Not so many years ago, I wouldn't have believed the UN involvement, Rutherford's problems, or Greenlees and Chitty.

But no, it's not what I meant in any of my post. Maybe I implied something like it with the expression rumors of wars and wars of rumors. I think to a certain extent I've appreciated the way Bill Bowen has been able to play the media game. I guess "teasers" and "rumors" are par for the course. Also, it takes a lot of motivation to play such a gutsy game, and I don't think Bill would not have much chance of getting noticed otherwise (between terrorist attacks, Afghanistan, Iraq, Stock Market, Martha Stewart, etc.)

I think the problem with the "media game" method is that the same story works only once, maybe twice, so you better be able to make good -- "fire all of your guns at once." Otherwise, the press doesn't need your story again unless it's even more sensational than the first time. They start treating you like a joke that's been told too many times.

I think that if I were one of Jaracz' lawyers, I would definitely have told him that remaining silent is the best way for now. There was probably fear of a "feeding frenzy" if Jaracz could have been forced to respond when the Catholics and Bill were both getting press on the same issue at the same time. At that time everyone was looking for a new angle so that their story didn't sound too much like one that had already been done.

Gamaliel

83

Should I continue to support Bill Bowen?

by Gamaliel in

jw
friends

to whom it may concern, .

i have contributed financially to the cause of silentlambs.org and have, to a smaller extent, even promoted the website.

it is difficult enough to fathom the depth of hurt heaped on humankind, but impossible for me to understand how such suffering can be compounded with injustice, as i read experiences on silentlambs.org.

Gamaliel

Cappuccino OC,

Sorry for not observing protocol by introducing myself. Actually a few of you might know me and might even be able to "vouch" for me if that is also necessary. I had lunch with 4 "silent lambs" at the "Grand Saloon" bar/restaurant in NYC just before silentlambs march on Brooklyn. I had only met one of them prior to that date. That was at my house in 1997 for what some affectionately called an "Aposto-fest." We had about 20 people over on that day. I have been to a few other gatherings of exJWs before and since. It's not that I want anyone using my actual name on here. My own sister might be a bit embarrassed that I've told part of her story, and I didn't get permission first. Although I secretly wish my parents would come on the site. There is plenty here to open their eyes in spite of the bickering.

Gamaliel

83

Should I continue to support Bill Bowen?

by Gamaliel in

jw
friends

to whom it may concern, .

i have contributed financially to the cause of silentlambs.org and have, to a smaller extent, even promoted the website.

it is difficult enough to fathom the depth of hurt heaped on humankind, but impossible for me to understand how such suffering can be compounded with injustice, as i read experiences on silentlambs.org.

Gamaliel

hamptonite:

You are probably right that the agenda hasn't changed, and I know that really it seems to have taken on its own life anyway. Still, I am worried for Bill himself. Something is obviously wrong. I am even more concerned for the abuse victims. I get a very uneasy feeling when I read such illogical attacks and defenses. I don't buy into the whole brainwashing/cult mentality theories that I started to buy into when I first left the JWs, but I do believe we are observing almost first-hand just how easily a "personality cult" can be formed and therefore how easy it is for someone to take advantage of what often appears to be blind trust.

I guess I am just frustrated based on hoping that this would remain as pure and worthy as it seemed to be at first. Something that I hoped all ex-JWs could be proud of.

Gamaliel

83

Should I continue to support Bill Bowen?

by Gamaliel in

jw
friends

to whom it may concern, .

i have contributed financially to the cause of silentlambs.org and have, to a smaller extent, even promoted the website.

it is difficult enough to fathom the depth of hurt heaped on humankind, but impossible for me to understand how such suffering can be compounded with injustice, as i read experiences on silentlambs.org.

Gamaliel

To Whom It May Concern,

I have contributed financially to the cause of silentlambs.org and have, to a smaller extent, even promoted the website. It is difficult enough to fathom the depth of hurt heaped on humankind, but impossible for me to understand how such suffering can be compounded with injustice, as I read experiences on silentlambs.org. I only had to point out a few of the experiences to justify to my wife why I had given as I had to the cause. As I read on this board recently: "Of the many sexual crimes, child molestation is unquestionably one of the most despicable. Those who shield child molesters certainly bear a very heavy responsibility."

Not that this should matter to anyone else, but I am now worried that my further support might be misplaced. I am looking for a viable alternative means of contributing to such a cause. It may sound selfish, but I don't believe I have time or skills at present to volunteer and would prefer just giving financially to a reputable abuse victims support group. Also, perhaps more selfishly, because I was a JW (4th generation), I would hope that an alternative exists that also focuses or, at least, understand JW issues. Although I wasn't aware of these issues while I was in (for nearly 25 years), my own sister had to endure an abusive husband "for the reputation of Jehovah's organization." My own father was one of the elders who recommended this counsel. He has expressed great remorse for this, but is still a JW.

My reason for the current question, if anyone cares to know, is that I have found the recent insinuations by Bill Bowen to be very distressing and so unfair to the people looking to him for effective leadership and support. Although discussing the issues on this forum became important, I was as anxious as many others to see the discussion stop. I had such high hopes for what Bill was doing that I honestly expected see evidence that he was dropping the matter to get back to more serious concerns about the abused victims. Yet, as I just discovered today, Bill has apparently continued to promote this unfair and abusive agenda.

see, "Denial, Dementia or Criminal Intent" by silentlambs - Site Admin at: http://lambsroar.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=123

excerpt:

I have no war with Ray Franz, I tried to take the peaceful way out and let him have the benefit of the doubt, .... It appears Ray wants a war.... I tried to let it go but sometimes an explanation needs to be given due to misrepresentation of the facts, well now you have it.

So far, I have only been able to get Ray's side of the story in person (via phone). Even without Ray's side of the story, however, I had already seen more than enough evidence to conclude that I currently can not, in good conscience, support Bill Bowen. Ironically, I would be knowingly supporting an abusive agenda. I'm torn, though, for the cause and hopes of individual "silent lambs" because I think the site itself still has both current and potential value. I am not encouraging others to stop supporting it.

Hopefully, silentlambs.org can get back to its stated agenda of helping "silent lambs" rather than fighting wars, rumors of wars and wars of rumors. Perhaps, it still might. In the meantime, if anyone knows of reputable alternative(s) to silentlambs exist, I would like to know. I am also interested in support of adult abuse victims, too (i.e., abused wives).

Has anyone here had experience with other such groups that they truly believe helped them to heal?

Gamaliel