Gamaliel

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Posts by Gamaliel

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  19

  Did the Watchtower Society Construction Crews in Brooklyn Bury Some Bodies?

  by Gamaliel in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  well this isn't exactly what you might think, but i have the following information based on what i consider good authority.

  still, it's without a shred of hard evidence.

  i am bringing it up now before the watchtower society tries to sell off the particular building in question.

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  Gamaliel

  I incline to the view that this is just "a story", an urban myth.

  I note that it's not referred to in Ray Franz's books

  ozzie,

  Good points. I should add that the "good authority" is someone who told me the story nearly 10 years ago, who is honest, and who believes the story. I believe only that he is telling me the story exactly as he heard it. The problem is that he is not a "good authority" on whether it really happened.

  It fits the simple profile of urban myths in that it uses ideas based on known facts and then builds something sensational on them -- things that a certain audience would very much want to believe or at least repeat. But those additional facts, just like in any urban myth, usually hinge on some suspicious ideas. The assumption, for example, that anyone on a Bethel construction crew might have correctly identified artifacts in the way a historian might. The possibilities proposed would more likely have ranged everywhere from "Piltdown Man" to "Jimmy Hoffa." I remember only one person in Bethel who might have been able to correclty identify a burial site from artifacts. Bill Gehring was a New York City history buff, and knew all the revolutionary war history and many of the obscure historical sites, and went on many historical tours of the city. (He wasn't in construction, however.)

  Still, the person I know heard it first while in Bethel circles, not in exJW circles, so I'm trying to find out anything else I can about the story. It's of interest to me even if it's not true. My loyal JW parents did not doubt it when I told them (5 years ago) but were quite ready to defend the Society on the decision that was supposedly made.

  Gamaliel
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  19

  Did the Watchtower Society Construction Crews in Brooklyn Bury Some Bodies?

  by Gamaliel in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  well this isn't exactly what you might think, but i have the following information based on what i consider good authority.

  still, it's without a shred of hard evidence.

  i am bringing it up now before the watchtower society tries to sell off the particular building in question.

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  Gamaliel

  BTTT
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  19

  Did the Watchtower Society Construction Crews in Brooklyn Bury Some Bodies?

  by Gamaliel in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  well this isn't exactly what you might think, but i have the following information based on what i consider good authority.

  still, it's without a shred of hard evidence.

  i am bringing it up now before the watchtower society tries to sell off the particular building in question.

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  Gamaliel

  Well this isn't exactly what you might think, but I have the following information based on what I consider good authority. Still, it's without a shred of hard evidence. I am bringing it up now before the Watchtower Society tries to sell off the particular building in question.

  Here's the story I heard: During the 1980's, one of the construction crews directed by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society was digging in the foundation area around the initial site of one of the buldings they currently own in Brooklyn Heights, New York. (Construction is now complete on the building in question.) The same crew came upon some human remains (bones) along with some artifacts which made them initially suspect they had chanced upon an Native American burial site. Others thought that it was much more likely the bones were from a 17th or 18th century "African-American" slave burial site. The few workers who were aware were asked, I'm told, for their complete silence about this discovery because of the delays that the City of New York would undoubtedly enforce upon the building project. It was suggested that this discovery might even put a complete stop to the building project. Although these are not quotes, the cooperation of the construction crew, I'm told, was clearly spoken of in terms similar to the following: "Let's make sure we don't say anything that might stand in the way of the work Jehovah wants us to accomplish. We all know how important this work is in our day."

  I'm not trying to break a story here. I'm looking for another person or persons who can corroborate the story I have heard. I am especially looking for eye-witnesses. I'll treat it completely anonymously if you have only heard about the story. If you are an eyewitness, I will treat the story as you wish, but with the request that we can at least discuss (with an attorney present, if you will allow) a way of publicizing the story to any legal extent possible under the protections offered to journalists. I am not a journalist, but will be happy to recommend one. Also, I will pay all legal fees and transportation fees for all consultations prior to release of the story (or permission to release the story). If you are serious, PM me and I'll provide initial contact information.

  Gamaliel
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  13

  Did Knorr take a Bribe?

  by RR in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  cleaning the basement and i found this letter that i copied from the dawn bible students archives years ago when i worked there!.

  have fun!.

  rr

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  Gamaliel

  RR,

  I tried to verify this story in 1978/9 with a bit of success. Also there was no doubt that Knorr had enjoyed at least one Cadillac in the past. A Bethelite I knew from my home state once took me to see about four black/gray Lincoln Town cars which he said belonged to Knorr, Suiter, et al. That would be about 1976. I don't really recall any more if any Cadillacs were among these cars he claimed were owned by various Bethel "heavies" as he called them.

  This letter you've copied was quoted and discussed in Bill Cetnar's testimony in one of the first "apostate" books I read (while still in Bethel). I met Bill Cetnar just a couple years later and he told me about it with the same level of detail in the book and letter, very little more. (Bill and his wife always ran the ex-JWs for Jesus Convention, as you know.) I couldn't get the story directly verified by anyone outside of Bill Cetnar, which, of course, is not absolutely necessary to believe it, but I wanted to know if someone else was willing to back him up.

  If I had tried to verify it openly I would have put myself and a few others in immediate trouble, but I did know one person, a good friend of mine, (Bethel Elder, Table Head & "Heavy") who told almost exactly the same story, but very obliquely, and without naming either Knorr or Koerber. However, he also hinted that Knorr was the key player in the story, and made it clear that he had very little love for the man.

  Additionally, there was another rumor around Bethel that could be heard from several sources that Knorr had in fact once tried to kick this same friend of mine out of Bethel on false charges, which prompted my friend to always hold "paper ammunition" which would be exposed if Knorr tried it again. The last part could be wild rumors, but it explained some things. Also these stories my friend told me, which tend to verify both the Koerber story and the rumors, are a very personal part of my friend's life, and he appreciates privacy in these matters, but someday soon I will mention it again to him and see if he wishes to expand on it a bit publicly.

  The things the Society later printed about Koerber tend to support the story in many ways, too. I think it's very credible that most everything in Cetnar's version is true, although I must add that Knorr didn't seem the type who would care so much about this specific "bribe." There may have been more to it, of course, but Knorr could have received cars any time by dropping hints near wealthy brothers.

  Gamaliel
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  8

  Bethlehem birth prophecy?

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the following excerpt is from and article by till at the infidels website.

  the idea that gospel authors fudged ot passages to appear to be prophecies is nothing new but this thought was to me significant.

  many times i have read that the author of matthew was compelled to add the birth narrative, as it is not in the earlier mark, to compete with the mystery cults birth stories and to add prestige to his main charactor by having him be born in the "city of david".

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  Gamaliel

  peacefulpete,

  I just noticed I left out a big chunk of what I wanted to say in that post I rushed to send on my last minutes of auxiliary power (during the blackout). I said:

  this is why Matthew used the story that put Jesus birth in Bethlehem even though Mark didn't know about it and Luke doesn't have him born there.

  I'm sure you already knew better, and have probably already mentioned this somewhere else...but I'll correct it here anyway: What I meant to say was that both Mark and John didn't seem to know or care anything about a Bethlehem birth, and although Luke has him born in Bethlehem, just like Matthew, they came up with completely different stories to put him there.

  Matthew says that Bethlehem was Mary and Joseph's home. (and has Joseph move to Nazareth on account of a dream). Luke thought their original home was always in Nazareth, so he comes up with a story about a census that makes no sense according to Roman law. Then he has him born out back of the NO VACANCY sign at the Bethlehem Holiday Inn (at least I think it was a Holiday). Matthew wouldn't have thought of that since he thought they already lived in Bethlehem.

  It just shows how the traditions shaped the stories. Mark was deficient because he didn't account for the new traditions that Jesus had to fulfill some important prophecies about being born in Bethlehem. It didn't matter to Mark whose Christ was no doubt completely human until baptism. Mark didn't even have a good resurrection story so that a couple more had to be tacked on over the next couple hundred years.

  Gamaliel
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  4

  Nazareth/ Nazarene revisited

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i wanted to post this as an alternative explanation for the nazareth/nazarene description of the christian savior.

  here before i posted another possible explanation for the word that involved galilean dialect and possible confusion between the words nazarite and nazareth by the authors of matthew and luke.

  the following possible explanation seems to have merit and is held by many scholars as the most probable reason the for the gospel reference to nazareth/nazarene when (to all available evidence) the city did not exist in the first century.

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  Gamaliel

  cityfan,

  I've been reading much about the history of the Jews under Roman occupation and have come to the conclusion that most of these sects including the Nazarenes, the Essenes and the Sicarii or Zealots were very much united in their hatred of the high priest Ananas and the Roman backed Pharisees.

  I think it's likely that their most common Jewish enemy was the Sadducees, not the Pharisees. It's possible that's what you meant, but if you really meant the Pharisees, I'd be interested in the source. The Sadducees were partially backed by the Romans. The Pharisees were around since the 200's BC but I think they were still too loosely organized to either be backed by or be hated by the Romans. (But if Rome knew them at all, and their reputation since the Maccabean times, they would NOT have been backed by the Romans. It seems like they were still more of a more "democratic" grass roots movement of teachers (rabbis) that began to gain "organizational" credibility only after the Temple was destroyed and when they began to promote their own "New Testament" based on a kind of "apostolic/rabbinical succession" -- only it was the traditional rabbinical schools of Hillel and Gamaliel, who were the heroes rather than Peter and Paul in the Christian NT.

  The Pharisees seemed to be fairly well liked in the days of Jesus, and we don't even know why (or if) Jesus really broke with the teachings of Pharisees, since many seem to have taught equivalent doctrines. If the Gospels had been written in Jesus' day rather than 40 years later, he likely would have been described as an itinerant Pharisee (rabbi) just like Paul described himself. (But not how Luke describes Paul's Pharisaism.)

  It was this background of unrest that eventually led to the destruction of the Jerusalem temple by the Romans. Early Christian historian Eusebius contends that the death of James the brother of Jesus at the hands of the Pharisees was a major cause of the Jewish revolt against Rome.

  Eusebius relies on Josephus for that idea. Funny how Eusebius makes a big deal of descriptions of James' robes that put one in mind of a (Sadducean) High Priest. I gather that the (Christian) bishops of major cities were already taking their dress cues from this idea.

  Gamaliel
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  9

  'dirtclod' popup

  by talesin in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  got a pop-up from 'dirtclog' tonite asking for my name and e-mail id.

  i ignored it, but isn't this a jw site and has anyone else gotten this.

  looking for info.

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  Gamaliel

  I think I only saw it pop up once or twice while loading a page in the forum where someone (Jourles?) linked a picture in his post from a page on the dirtclod site that needed a password.

  Gamaliel
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  8

  Bethlehem birth prophecy?

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the following excerpt is from and article by till at the infidels website.

  the idea that gospel authors fudged ot passages to appear to be prophecies is nothing new but this thought was to me significant.

  many times i have read that the author of matthew was compelled to add the birth narrative, as it is not in the earlier mark, to compete with the mystery cults birth stories and to add prestige to his main charactor by having him be born in the "city of david".

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  Gamaliel

  Hamas,

  lol. I guess some of us (like me) will never get real closure unless we perform the autopsy ourselves.

  Gamaliel
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  66

  North-Eastern US Blackout

  by Lady Lee in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  new york state .

  ontario .

  quebec .

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  Gamaliel

  When the power went out I called home to tell them only to find out their lights had just gone out, too. While on the phone I remembered that I had an unfinished post to JWD that had been sitting there hidden behind some other windows. I was on a 10 minute power protector on one computer, the other one next to it was also on a UPS that didn't seem to work -- the computer kept buzzing on an off and on and off. I doubt it works today. I sent the post, and had enough time to shut down that computer normally before unplugging them.

  Then we walked down the stairway (19th fl) and I headed straight for the 59th St Bridge to Queens. Walked another 55 blocks into Queens and my wife picked me up from Long Island. She got to me after dark, but still found me. (We also took drove another couple people home.) The kindness and civility of everyone was great. Volunteers were directing traffic, and some were giving out water along the way like it was a marathon. When streetlights went out, I saw a couple car dealerships along Queens Boulevard started up cars and aimed the lights out into the streets. A lot of people were picking up hitchhikers and loaning their cell phones. This was a very peaceful emergency -- so far.

  Gamaliel
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  8

  If the U.S. Has a Major Terrorist Threat As Claimed, Why NO ACTION Now?

  by D8TA in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  with this current power crisis in the united states, why isnt there any terrorist groups exploiting the situation?

  with overwhelmed problems on so many various levels of public service (law enforcement, medical facilities, airports, transportation), why not strike now?

  wow.

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  Gamaliel

  Thought about the same thing on July 4th as a million people gathered to watch hour-long Grucci fireworks shows along beaches and waterways around NYC. Seems like the ideal time to make a point with everyone already downwind from clouds of smoke.

  To your point about the blackout, so many terrorists movies and novels include a blackout as a diversion. Some people say that people tend to vote conservative during threats to stability, so I would expect the terror alert levels to stay very high no matter how real they are.

  Gamaliel