Posts by Duran

41

Is Watchtower totally off base on Armageddon?

by Vanderhoven7 in

to me it is quite evident that the gt spoken about in matthew 24, mark 13 and luke 21 is a one time, non-repeatable localized event resulting in the destruction of jerusalem and the temple followed by the dispersion of surviving jews throughout the nations.. however, what is not so clear to most is that the gt of revelation deals with the same event.

my understanding is that the gb of jehovah witnesses has no clue as to how to interpret the apocalyptic messages found both in the synoptics and revelation.

but steve greg has armageddon down pat.

Duran

Duran, I see it differently. I follow the natural Revelation sequence in this case. Beast from the sea was first on the scene. It had a limited lifespan:
Note now the activities of Beast from the earth. It put up an image of Beast from the sea. In my mind that means that Beast from the sea is no more. It then gave breath to the image, the image now becoming a beast in its own right:
The new beast is identified in Rev. 17 as the scarlet-colored wild beast, i.e., Beast from the abyss.

If that is how you see it, it is because you are still stuck on WTS teachings and ignore Scriptures.

The lifespan of the beast from the sea is not limited to 42 months. The 42 months has to do with the said authority that it will be given after it gets healed.

Lifespan is: prior to death-stroke=was>>>>>>>death-stroke=is not>healed=out of the abyss>42-month authority>>after 42 months end kills 2 witnesses/battle with Jesus>thrown into lake=goes off into destruction

[ 8 The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth—those whose names have not been written in the scroll of life from the founding of the world—will be amazed when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present.]

[ 13 These have one thought, so they give their power and authority to the wild beast. 14 These will battle with the Lamb, but because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those with him who are called and chosen and faithful will do so.”]

[2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months. 3 I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy for 1,260 days dressed in sackcloth.”7 When they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will wage war with them and conquer them and kill them.]

_____________________

[3 I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been fatally wounded, but its mortal wound had been healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration. 5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 8 And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it. From the founding of the world, not one of their names has been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.]

[19 And I saw (1) the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the one seated on the horse and against his army. 20 And (1) the wild beast was caught, and along with it (2) the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of (1) the wild beast and those who worship (1) its image. While still alive, they (1,2) both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur.]

Note- There is the beast/false prophet (2) and the beast (1) that has a mark and image separate of it. The image is not a beast in itself.

41

Is Watchtower totally off base on Armageddon?

by Vanderhoven7 in

to me it is quite evident that the gt spoken about in matthew 24, mark 13 and luke 21 is a one time, non-repeatable localized event resulting in the destruction of jerusalem and the temple followed by the dispersion of surviving jews throughout the nations.. however, what is not so clear to most is that the gt of revelation deals with the same event.

my understanding is that the gb of jehovah witnesses has no clue as to how to interpret the apocalyptic messages found both in the synoptics and revelation.

but steve greg has armageddon down pat.

Duran

Duran, Revelation has a total of three beasts: 1) Beast from the sea to rule 42 months (Rev. 13:1, 5). 2) Beast from the earth (false prophet) (13:8). 3) Beast from the abyss (scarlet-colored wild beast) (11:7; 17:3, 7, 8). Beast from the sea would have been assimilated by Beast from the abyss because Jesus would dispatch only two at Amageddon, namely Beast from the abyss and the false prophet (19:19, 20).

It is the beast from the sea along with the beast from the earth (false prophet) that is said to be the two that are thrown into the fiery lake at Armagoodon. That said the beast from sea in Rev 13 is the same as the beast from Rev 17, the 8th king who rules for 42 months.

The beast is in the abyss when he receives the death-stroke. Then is out of the abyss when the death-stroke gets healed. It goes off into destruction when it gets thrown into the fiery lake. Revelation 17:8;13:3,8;19:20

[3 I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been fatally wounded, but its mortal wound had been healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration.11 Then I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking like a dragon. 12 It exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight. And it makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first wild beast, whose mortal wound was healed. 13 And it performs great signs, even making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind. 14 It misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that it was permitted to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived.16 It puts under compulsion all people—the small and the great, the rich and the poor, the free and the slaves—that these should be marked on their right hand or on their forehead, 17and that nobody can buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name.]

[ 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur.]

So, how will we know when the great tribulation begins? When everybody is able to see the signs:

No that is not the case. You are mixing signs and events.

The 'signs' with the sun, moon, stars happen AFTER the GT and they serve to show Jesus is coming. The ones in fear at that time are the ones that took the MOTB during the 42-month rule. The ones that are lifting their head are those that refused the MOTB and underwent GT for doing so.

1. WW3/pangs of distress

2. 8th king 42-month rule GT

3. [24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.] cf. [25 “Also, there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth anguish of nations not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and its agitation. 26 People will become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.27 And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.28 But as these things start to occur, stand up straight and lift up your heads, because your deliverance is getting near.”] cf. Revelation 6:12-17;19:17-21

[ 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.]

41

Is Watchtower totally off base on Armageddon?

by Vanderhoven7 in

to me it is quite evident that the gt spoken about in matthew 24, mark 13 and luke 21 is a one time, non-repeatable localized event resulting in the destruction of jerusalem and the temple followed by the dispersion of surviving jews throughout the nations.. however, what is not so clear to most is that the gt of revelation deals with the same event.

my understanding is that the gb of jehovah witnesses has no clue as to how to interpret the apocalyptic messages found both in the synoptics and revelation.

but steve greg has armageddon down pat.

Duran

WW3/pangs of distress (This is the pretext used to give 8th king his authority)

8th king 42-month rule (This is the time of GT upon those refusing him = Spiritual Jerusalem/temple being trampled)

End of 42 months the 'sign' occurs in sun, moon, stars>Jesus comes/Armageddon

15

A Jehovah's Witness family's excellent Letter of Resignation trending on exjw Reddit today

by Balaamsass2 in

i got an email notice today on this excellent letter of resignation from a german family that is trending on reddit.

i thought i would share it here if anyone is so inclined to write one.

for those with pimi jw family and jw business connections, it may not be wise to share such a letter, but i imagine it must be very freeing to send such a letter.

Duran

Nowhere does the Bible mention that Christians should call themselves by the name that God gave to the people of Israel, which significantly does not appear once in the basic Greek text of the New Testament. We want to be witnesses of Jesus and simply be called Christians - as Jesus commanded and as it was also ordained by divine providence (Acts 1:8; 11:26).

A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is a witness of his God and Father Jehovah. (John 20:17;16:27;17:7,8)

To follow Jesus would mean too also be a witness of Jehovah.

[ 5 and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.”]

[ 16 Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him who sent me. 17 If anyone desires to do His will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or I speak of my own originality. 18 Whoever speaks of his own originality is seeking his own glory; but whoever seeks the glory of the one who sent him, this one is true and there is no unrighteousness in him.]

[49 For I have not spoken of my own initiative, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment about what to say and what to speak.]

[28 Jesus then said: “After you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me, I speak these things.]

____________________

What allowed these people to be JWs to begin with?

They said this:

We strongly recommend that you look up the biblical passages quoted and check for yourselves whether this is really the case (Acts 17:11).
Firstly, it must be noted: The critical examination of special teachings is not apostasy, but a Christian commandment (1 John 4:1, 1 Thess. 5:21).

These Scriptures have always been there and said the same. If they followed that from the beginning they would never have become JWs.

And here:

We therefore hereby declare that we no longer wish to be known as Jehovah's Witnesses.
We ask for written confirmation.

Why do they request from a fake/baseless religion to tell them what they are or not?

15

lets imagine big A really does happen...

by stan livedeath in

lets imagine the watchtower idea of armageddon really does happen in the next couple of years.... and afterwards jehovah says to the gb.

" right guys--ive done my part--its all over to you now.

see you again in 1000 years time ".

Duran

prune juice ?

15

lets imagine big A really does happen...

by stan livedeath in

lets imagine the watchtower idea of armageddon really does happen in the next couple of years.... and afterwards jehovah says to the gb.

" right guys--ive done my part--its all over to you now.

see you again in 1000 years time ".

Duran

There will be no WTS/GB post-Armageddon.

There will be individual JWs post-Armageddon, but not because of their association with the WTS today, but because when the time comes for the 8th king to rule, they will refuse to support it. (Refuse the MOTB)

That will be the case for all people now that will be in the post-Armageddon world.

Revelation 14:6,7,9-12;13:5,7,10;19:20,21;7:9,10,13-17;20:4

10

Thought For the Day - for PIMI JW's

by BoogerMan in

which name does the evil faithful slave's literature demand that you focus on - jehovah or jesus?.

do jesus & the bible agree with the org's obsession with the name 'jehovah', or was jesus just being presumptuous?

(matthew 10:22) and you will be objects of hatred by all people on account and whoever receives one such young child on the basis of my name receives me.... (matthew 18:20) for where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there i am in their midst.”.

Duran

Jesus is the first and the last in the sense that he is the first creation, and the first to be resurrected from the dead, and the last Adam

So, Rev 1:17,18 is referring to Jesus.

None of these apply to God who cannot die and was not created.

Are you saying that none of the others are referring to Jehovah?

10

Thought For the Day - for PIMI JW's

by BoogerMan in

which name does the evil faithful slave's literature demand that you focus on - jehovah or jesus?.

do jesus & the bible agree with the org's obsession with the name 'jehovah', or was jesus just being presumptuous?

(matthew 10:22) and you will be objects of hatred by all people on account and whoever receives one such young child on the basis of my name receives me.... (matthew 18:20) for where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there i am in their midst.”.

Duran

Its importance here lies in the double use of kyrios. The one is clearly Yahweh, but who is the other? Clearly not Yahweh, but an exalted being whom the psalmist calls kyrios. (2) Paul calls Jesus kyrios, but he seems to have marked reservations about actually calling Jesus 'God'

[7 Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.8 “I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says Lord (kyrios) God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”]

Who is Lord (kyrios) referring to there, Jehovah or Jesus?

[6 And he said to me: “They have come to pass! I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the spring of the water of life free.]

Jehovah or Jesus?

[13 I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.]

Jehovah or Jesus?

[12 Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I have called. I am the same One. I am the first; I am also the last.]

Jehovah or Jesus?

[17 When I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of the Grave.]

Jehovah or Jesus?

10

Jehovah’s Witnesses or Jesus Witnesses?

by Vanderhoven7 in

keith writes.

you have just touched on a flawed doctrinal belief that is foundational to false religion.. first, it is important to understand what false religion means when they call themselves jehovah’s witnesses.

by this, they declare themselves to be “witnesses of the father” despite the fact that jehovah is not the name of god at all, but a concoction of human origin from the dark ages.. here is the flaw:.

Duran

[9 I John, your brother and a sharer with you in the tribulation and kingdom and endurance in association with Jesus, was on the island called Patʹmos for speaking about God and bearing witness concerning Jesus.]

[9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness they had given. 10 They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been.]

[6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. 7 He was saying in a loud voice: “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of judgment by him has arrived, so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water.” 9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. 12 Here is where it calls for endurance on the part of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.”]

[4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years.]

[9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”]

10

Jehovah’s Witnesses or Jesus Witnesses?

by Vanderhoven7 in

keith writes.

you have just touched on a flawed doctrinal belief that is foundational to false religion.. first, it is important to understand what false religion means when they call themselves jehovah’s witnesses.

by this, they declare themselves to be “witnesses of the father” despite the fact that jehovah is not the name of god at all, but a concoction of human origin from the dark ages.. here is the flaw:.

Duran

Is it even possible for ANYONE to be a witness of the Father?
The answer to that from the Bible is No!

Christians were to be witnesses of Christ, not Jehovah:

Going by the criteria of not being able to a witness of Jehovah because of not have ever seeing him, then no one other than those that lived during the time of Jesus and that saw him could be his witnesses either.