Posts by Duran

51

Searching

by Striker in

jude 1:9 (kjv) yet michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, the lord rebuke thee.. matthew 4:10 (kjv) then saith jesus unto him, get thee hence, satan: for it is written, thou shalt worship the lord thy god, and him only shalt thou serve.

.

.....my understanding is that you all believe jesus is michael the archangel....... the two verses above describe two different personalities..... the archangel in jude rebuked satan in the name of the father, because he knew it was not his place to rebuke him, he knew that he didn't have the authority to do so, that the only person who possesses this authority is god himself.... while jesus, in matthew 4:10, does not need to invoke the name of the father to rebuke satan, because the father and jesus are one, not michael and jesus..... .... because michael the archangel is not jesus christ our savior.....

Duran

@ aqwsed

I suppose I have no one to blame but myself for attempting to reason with a total foolish person unable to discuss. You keep with your copy and paste and don't even understand what you post. You keep just repeating the same.

You fail to understand that the question asked 'to which one of the angels' did God say that to, is just that, what angel/spirit being son did he say that to. That's because that is all there is to choose from. There is Jehovah God, who was not created, and then there are all his angels/spirit being sons that he created.

The one he (Jehovah) made/created first is considered his firstborn and that is what accounts for the sonship that does not apply to the other angel sons. It is that angel son that came to earth (for the first time) and when raised back to heaven sat at the right hand of God at that time. That is his exalted position. He is equal with God now from that point in the sense that he now has life within himself and everything/everyone (except Jehovah) is subjected to him. This was Jehovah's doing/reward to him in the exalted superior position.

Even the chosen ones will be rewarded with life within themselves as well as getting to rule with Jesus for the 1,000 years. Jesus rules from the time he sat on the throne with Jehovah (at his right hand) until sometime after the 1,000 years when the last enemy death comes to an end and then hands the kingdom back to Jehovah.

Jesus comes to earth a second time after the GT and guess what Michael is said to do...

[12 “At that time Miʹcha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people.]

[24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.]

[ 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.]

___________________

Will you answer the post where I said: 'Putting Jesus aside here"

51

Searching

by Striker in

jude 1:9 (kjv) yet michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, the lord rebuke thee.. matthew 4:10 (kjv) then saith jesus unto him, get thee hence, satan: for it is written, thou shalt worship the lord thy god, and him only shalt thou serve.

.

.....my understanding is that you all believe jesus is michael the archangel....... the two verses above describe two different personalities..... the archangel in jude rebuked satan in the name of the father, because he knew it was not his place to rebuke him, he knew that he didn't have the authority to do so, that the only person who possesses this authority is god himself.... while jesus, in matthew 4:10, does not need to invoke the name of the father to rebuke satan, because the father and jesus are one, not michael and jesus..... .... because michael the archangel is not jesus christ our savior.....

Duran

@ aqwsed

While I wait for your response to the above, I will add this:

Jesus’ authority over angels is absolute (Matthew 28:18), whereas Michael’s role as “one of the chief princes” (Daniel 10:13) implies a level of hierarchy under divine authority rather than supreme authority. Michael is a commander within the angelic ranks, whereas Jesus is “Lord of lords” and “King of kings” (Revelation 19:16), over all creation.

You are speaking of Michael at a point in time as referenced in Daniel. This was before Jesus came to earth as a man. Michael was/is under authority of God, YES and as archangel with God's authority, Michael had authority over the angels. (Technically over his brothers, they and him being sons of God.)

Jesus does indeed have authority over all creation, but he does not over Jehovah God. It was after Jesus died and was raised that he was exalted to a superior position. He was given that power and authority over all by Jehovah.

Jesus, a son of God has authority over the angels/sons of God (Jesus' brothers) which he always had in his position as archangel, but now since coming and dying and being raised, now in his exalted superior position, the angels/his brothers are subject to him based on his own authority, not Jehovah's as he has been given authority over all in heaven and earth, except over Jehovah God.

[ 8 More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position]

[ 18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.]

[22 He is at God’s right hand, for he went to heaven, and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.]

[27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him.]

51

Searching

by Striker in

jude 1:9 (kjv) yet michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, the lord rebuke thee.. matthew 4:10 (kjv) then saith jesus unto him, get thee hence, satan: for it is written, thou shalt worship the lord thy god, and him only shalt thou serve.

.

.....my understanding is that you all believe jesus is michael the archangel....... the two verses above describe two different personalities..... the archangel in jude rebuked satan in the name of the father, because he knew it was not his place to rebuke him, he knew that he didn't have the authority to do so, that the only person who possesses this authority is god himself.... while jesus, in matthew 4:10, does not need to invoke the name of the father to rebuke satan, because the father and jesus are one, not michael and jesus..... .... because michael the archangel is not jesus christ our savior.....

Duran

Yes, Satan is a fallen angel. Originally created as a spirit being
Michael is indeed an angel,
Yes, the "sons of God" mentioned in Job 1:6 refer to angels, but they are a general category of created beings. They are spiritual beings created by God and, as such, can be referred to as "sons of God"

Putting Jesus aside here, we agree that ALL angels (including Michael and Satan) are spirit beings created by God and they are considered God's sons. (1121. ben/5207. huios)

That said, tell me if you agree with the following:

God existed before he created ANY of these said angelic spirit sons.

Then at some point, he created them and then they came to exist along with him.

The one he created first would be his first created angelic spirit son.

Do you follow and agree with the said so far?

51

Searching

by Striker in

jude 1:9 (kjv) yet michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, the lord rebuke thee.. matthew 4:10 (kjv) then saith jesus unto him, get thee hence, satan: for it is written, thou shalt worship the lord thy god, and him only shalt thou serve.

.

.....my understanding is that you all believe jesus is michael the archangel....... the two verses above describe two different personalities..... the archangel in jude rebuked satan in the name of the father, because he knew it was not his place to rebuke him, he knew that he didn't have the authority to do so, that the only person who possesses this authority is god himself.... while jesus, in matthew 4:10, does not need to invoke the name of the father to rebuke satan, because the father and jesus are one, not michael and jesus..... .... because michael the archangel is not jesus christ our savior.....

Duran

Hebrew 4397. malak (messenger) - Greek 32. aggelos (messenger,angel)

Hebrew 1121. ben (son) - Greek 5207. huios (son)

___________________

When I talk about 'angels', I am speaking about spirit-beings that Jehovah God created.

When I talk about 'sons' here, I am talking about these angelic spirit-beings that Jehovah created which are said to be myriads of them. These would include Michael, Satan, and Gabriel.

Did he create all of them at the same time... or in many septate groups at different times.

If it was many septate groups at different times, that means there is a group of however many they were, that are Jehovah's first angelic spirit-being sons. These unknown number of sons would be his firstborns/first created angelic spirit-being sons.

Now at this point, no matter how many more groups followed to complete all the myriads that were created, the one thing that would be so, is that the first group were on hand to witness ALL the following groups being created.

Now what if Jehovah didn't start with a group, what if he started with one, maybe just Michael.

Then that would mean Michael was his firstborn/first created angelic spirit-being son.

Then after that, what if he went to creating groups at a time until all angelic spirit-being sons were created.

That would mean that Michael his firstborn/first created angelic spirit-being son was on hand to see all other angelic spirit-being sons being created.

Now jumping to Jesus, with Jehovah calling him a 'son' (5207. huios) at Luke 9:35. That mention of him being called Jehovah's 'son' is no different than all the myriads of angelic spirit-beings being called Jehovah's 'sons'. (1121. ben - 5207. huios)

The significance when it comes to Jesus is that he was audibly/publicly called 'son' by Jehovah in order to be glorified by him. And it was said that he was the chosen one and to listen to him.

51

Searching

by Striker in

jude 1:9 (kjv) yet michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, the lord rebuke thee.. matthew 4:10 (kjv) then saith jesus unto him, get thee hence, satan: for it is written, thou shalt worship the lord thy god, and him only shalt thou serve.

.

.....my understanding is that you all believe jesus is michael the archangel....... the two verses above describe two different personalities..... the archangel in jude rebuked satan in the name of the father, because he knew it was not his place to rebuke him, he knew that he didn't have the authority to do so, that the only person who possesses this authority is god himself.... while jesus, in matthew 4:10, does not need to invoke the name of the father to rebuke satan, because the father and jesus are one, not michael and jesus..... .... because michael the archangel is not jesus christ our savior.....

Duran

[18 Look! He has no faith in his servants, And he finds fault with his angels.] 4397. malak (messenger)

[6 Now the day came when the sons of the true God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and Satan also entered among them.] 1121. ben (son)

[2 the sons of the true God began to notice that the daughters of men were beautiful. So they began taking as wives all whom they chose.] 1121. ben (son)

[6 And the angels who did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place, he has reserved with eternal bonds in dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.] 32. aggelos (messenger,angel)

[2 Then Jehovah’s angel went up from Gilʹgal to Boʹchim and said: “I brought you up out of Egypt into the land about which I swore to your forefathers. Furthermore, I said, ‘I will never break my covenant with you.] 4397. malak (messenger)

[5 For example, to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son] 32. aggelos (messenger,angel) - 5207. huios (son)

[ 35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying: “This is my Son, the one who has been chosen. Listen to him.”] 5207. huios (son)

[ 17 For he received from God the Father honor and glory when words such as these were conveyed to him by the magnificent glory: “This is my Son, my beloved, whom I myself have approved.”] 5207. huios (son)

51

Searching

by Striker in

jude 1:9 (kjv) yet michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, the lord rebuke thee.. matthew 4:10 (kjv) then saith jesus unto him, get thee hence, satan: for it is written, thou shalt worship the lord thy god, and him only shalt thou serve.

.

.....my understanding is that you all believe jesus is michael the archangel....... the two verses above describe two different personalities..... the archangel in jude rebuked satan in the name of the father, because he knew it was not his place to rebuke him, he knew that he didn't have the authority to do so, that the only person who possesses this authority is god himself.... while jesus, in matthew 4:10, does not need to invoke the name of the father to rebuke satan, because the father and jesus are one, not michael and jesus..... .... because michael the archangel is not jesus christ our savior.....

Duran

@ aqwsed12345

Alot posted from you there and yet still did to answer my questions. Can you answer just what is asked here...

Are those sons of God, are they angels? (Speaking of those said to take their station before Jehovah. Job 1:6)

Is Satan an angel?

Is Satan God's son?

Is Michael an angel?

Is Michael God's son?

__________________________

The term “archangel” means “chief angel” or “leading angel,”
Even if Michael were unique in this rank, this does not imply that Jesus must be Michael.

[7 And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled]

[ 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels]

So, you don't think Michael is Jesus...OKAY, but do you think:

Michael's angels are Jesus' angels?

Do you think Michael is included among Jesus' angels?

51

Searching

by Striker in

jude 1:9 (kjv) yet michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, the lord rebuke thee.. matthew 4:10 (kjv) then saith jesus unto him, get thee hence, satan: for it is written, thou shalt worship the lord thy god, and him only shalt thou serve.

.

.....my understanding is that you all believe jesus is michael the archangel....... the two verses above describe two different personalities..... the archangel in jude rebuked satan in the name of the father, because he knew it was not his place to rebuke him, he knew that he didn't have the authority to do so, that the only person who possesses this authority is god himself.... while jesus, in matthew 4:10, does not need to invoke the name of the father to rebuke satan, because the father and jesus are one, not michael and jesus..... .... because michael the archangel is not jesus christ our savior.....

Duran

@ aqwsed

[6 Now the day came when the sons of the true God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and Satan also entered among them.]

Are those said 'sons' of God, angels?

Is Satan an angel?

Is Satan God's son?

Is Michael the archangel, God's son?

Returns with authority “with the voice of an archangel” but is never called the archangel Himself.

You do not believe Jesus is Michael the archangel, so whomever/whatever you believe Jesus is, is Jesus in your understanding above an archangel?

If so, why would Jesus be said to come with a voice of something that is lesser in authority then himself?

171

Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat in

in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

Duran

Where did you read anywhere that the Father "created" or "made" the Son? I only read that the Son was born or begotten of the Father.

[14 “To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God:]

In John 10:30, Jesus declares, "I and the Father are one," which the Jews understood as a claim to divinity,

[22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.]

According to the above 'they' (Jesus' disciples) are ONE 'just as' Jehovah and Jesus are ONE.

In what way are the disciples ONE that is JUST AS Jehovah and Jesus being ONE?

51

Searching

by Striker in

jude 1:9 (kjv) yet michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, the lord rebuke thee.. matthew 4:10 (kjv) then saith jesus unto him, get thee hence, satan: for it is written, thou shalt worship the lord thy god, and him only shalt thou serve.

.

.....my understanding is that you all believe jesus is michael the archangel....... the two verses above describe two different personalities..... the archangel in jude rebuked satan in the name of the father, because he knew it was not his place to rebuke him, he knew that he didn't have the authority to do so, that the only person who possesses this authority is god himself.... while jesus, in matthew 4:10, does not need to invoke the name of the father to rebuke satan, because the father and jesus are one, not michael and jesus..... .... because michael the archangel is not jesus christ our savior.....

Duran

@ aqwsed

Any response to my above post?

5

WHAT DOES THE NEW LIGHT ON THE UNITED NATIONS REVEAL ABOUT THE WATCHTOWER

by raymond frantz in

https://youtu.be/8p5z-acq8yi?si=zs5r75kguxkk1woc.

so what you are about to watch is the 3rd adjustment that was introduced in the annual meeting by geofftey jackson and it has to do with the their new understanding on the united nations, so here is the verse revelation 17:12 :"these have one thought, so they give their power and authority to the wild beast.

" so they used to believe that the "one thought" in this verse was the one thought to destroy babylon the great but that has now changed to one thought empowering the united nations with more powers to carry on god's will and bring armageddon.

Duran

So what you are about to watch is the 3rd adjustment that was introduced in the Annual Meeting by Geofftey Jackson and it has to do with the their new understanding on the United Nations, so here is the verse Revelation 17:12 :"These have one thought, so they give their power and authority to the wild beast." So they used to believe that the "one thought" in this verse was the one thought to destroy Babylon the Great but that has now changed to one thought empowering the United Nations with more powers to carry on God's will and bring Armageddon.

Apparently, GB member Jackson is not aware that this is not a NEW teaching.

1. The Bible has not changed, it has always said that the thought is to give their power to the beast.

2. The WTS has already shown that the power/authority is given first and then at some point they turn on BTG.

[Revelation Climax – As John soon learns, the time will come when the UN will act with considerable authority. Then it, in its turn, “goes off into destruction.”]

[6-15-12 WT – Any power it (8th king/U.N.) has comes from its member nations, especially from its key backer, the Anglo-American World Power. (Rev. 17:10, 11) But it does receive authority to act as a king to carry out a specific task, one that triggers a chain of events that will change history.]