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by Striker 51 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Striker

  Jude 1:9 (KJV) Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

  Matthew 4:10 (KJV) Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

  .....My understanding is that you all believe Jesus is Michael the archangel......

  The two verses above describe Two different personalities..... the archangel in Jude rebuked Satan IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, because he knew it was not His place to rebuke him, he knew that HE didn't have the authority to do so, that the only person who possesses this authority is God Himself.... while Jesus, in Matthew 4:10, DOES NOT NEED TO INVOKE THE NAME OF THE FATHER TO REBUKE SATAN, Because THE FATHER AND JESUS ARE ONE, NOT MICHAEL AND JESUS....

  .... Because Michael the Archangel IS NOT Jesus Christ our Savior....
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  Sea Breeze

  Great catch Striker.
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  peacefulpete

  3 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan[a] standing at his right side to accuse him. 2 The Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! ...

  This 'angel' (conflated with Yahweh) speaks rebuke in the name of Yahweh.

  Confusing? It all returns to the second power/great angel concept that evolved into the Christ of Christianity.

  Michael and Christ: Michael Tradition and Angel Christology in Early Christianity: Hannah, Darrell D.: 9781610971539: Amazon.com: Books
  
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  truthlover123

  To which one of the angels did he ( God ) call son? ( Hebrews 1:5) None- Michael is an ARCH ANGEL, like Gabriel- apparently, there were seven? Only Jesus was called son - he sits on God's right hand mentioned several times in scripture.

  Re Jude vs 9- Michael the archangel disputing with Satan, and expanding on Strikers point- Jesus died in 33 ce- yet Jude, written years after Jesus' death, is saying Michael, (not Jesus way back when), disputed with Satan. If Jude understood Michael and Jesus were the same, would he not have referenced that important point? Wasn't Jude the brother of James - both Jesus half brothers who would know?
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  Duran

  Michael is an ARCH ANGEL

  [ 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.]

  [ 30 ... they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.]

  
  

  To which one of the angels did he ( God ) call son? ( Hebrews 1:5) None- Only Jesus was called son

  All angels are 'sons' of God.

  [2 the sons of the true God began to notice that the daughters of men were beautiful. So they began taking as wives all whom they chose.]

  [6 Now the day came when the sons of the true God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and Satan also entered among them.]

  [ 7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?]
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  peacefulpete

  If Jude understood Michael and Jesus were the same, would he not have referenced that important point?

  According to Origen, the writer of Jude was quoting the Assumption of Moses (1rstcentury CE). We are missing about 1/3 of that so it's possible it was within that section. Others believe he was referring to a composition that included the Assumption and the Apocalypse of Moses (wherein Michael is driving God Most High's cherub-pulled chariot carrying the bodies of Adam and Abel to be buried in Eden which has been relocated to the 3rd heaven). This gives Michael the role that would explain the Jude passage where Satan demands Michael reveal the location of Moses' body.

  The writer of Jude may been in fact combining that tradition with the Zechariah scene above. Many regarded that pericope as proof of a second power, the angel of the Lord, that acts and speaks as the Lord and seems to be acting on behalf of the 'Almighty' to war with enemies. In short there was a diversity of terms and roles assigned for emanations of God. Some of it appears by design others may have been artifacts of translating.

  It would be far too much to expect every writer to share identical imagery and conceptualization of the Great Prince Michael/Angel of the Lord/Son/Logos. You are struggling because you are mistaking these allegorical stories as literal and frustrated that they are not consistent in detail.
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  stan livedeath

  Striker =she eats dragons and all who went before her.
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  Duran

  Pronunciation - Striker x Strike her
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  truthlover123

  When looking at Hebrews, God is speaking to A Son- Jesus. Not "sons of God". This is specific to Jesus vs an angel. Heb 1:2-8 - these verses clearly define The One. Jesus.

  Pete: whomever he may be thinking of, we can only work on what is written. I am not struggling as you say, I believe it's very clear. Jesus and Michael are not the same, but thanks for that info.
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  DesirousOfChange

  .... Because Michael the Archangel IS NOT Jesus Christ our Savior....

  .

  Jesus. Michael. Michael. Jesus It really just doesn't fucking matter as long as my lawn gets mowed!!!!