SB making his chart...
Posts by Duran
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21IS JESUS A CREATED BEING? DEBATE WITH PASTOR
by raymond frantz inhttps://youtu.be/ro6q_osgkns?si=hyxualluhruwvjnb.
—colossians 1:15 from the nwt says it plain as day: “he is the image of the invisible god, the firstborn of all creation.” that’s not vague; it’s got a punch.
“firstborn” and “creation” sit side by side, and in greek, that second word is “ktisis,” which means the physical stuff—trees, stars, you name it.
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80
Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?
by liam inmay 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.
what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.
now the wt is saying that's not enough.
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Duran
@Vanderhoven
Can you tell me if the GC mentioned in Rev 7, came out of the 66-70 GT period, or does the GC come out of 'another' said GT period?
If you say 'another', then when is that GT period to occur or has it already, if so, when?
[9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.13 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.]
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80
Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?
by liam inmay 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.
what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.
now the wt is saying that's not enough.
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Duran
If one believes in the duel fulfillment theory we need to attempt to discover how things Jesus predicted in Matthew 24 apply and mean for us today.
On the first page, I already addressed that, saying:
[It does have a future application according to the Bible. But the parts that you are referring to do not apply.] (here)
Note that it is "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven", not the Son of man visiting the earth.
First off, the 'sign' is the sun, moon, star event. It occurs just prior to his coming. Seeing that event, those having faith in him will stand up straight/lift their heads (rejoice) because they know that event is the sign they are about to get relief/deliverance from the TRIB that they are undergoing at that time living under the 8th king while refusing him.
In contrast, those that didn't have faith in him and went along with the 8th king, when they see that sign, they will be in fear because they know they are about to be killed off. (here)
Does the phrase "coming (not parousia) in the clouds" necessarily refer to a personal coming to earth? We should not read that thought into the text.
That has nothing to do with what we are talking about concerning the GT being a future event from 66-70. But for the record, his coming is the same as the so-called 'parousia'. That coming is his 'second coming'. (here)
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Put the above aside and tell me if the GC came out of the 66-70 period or do does the GC come out of a future GT that is said to occur? (here)
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80
Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?
by liam inmay 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.
what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.
now the wt is saying that's not enough.
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Duran
Why did you leave off verse 26...
[24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.] cf. [ 25 “Also, there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth anguish of nations not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and its agitation. 26 People will become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 But as these things start to occur, stand up straight and lift up your heads, because your deliverance is getting near.”]
[ 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels]
Has Jesus arrived yet.... what tribulation does he give relief/deliverance from?
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Why do you not address who the GC is that comes out the GT in Rev 7?
Does the GC come out from 66-70 period or from Rev 13:5,7,10 period? (here)
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80
Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?
by liam inmay 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.
what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.
now the wt is saying that's not enough.
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Duran
Actually Duran, I don't have to explain anything about Revelation or Thessalonians. My claim is that the GT of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 is fait accompli to which Luke 21:20,24 attests. Now if you can disprove this claim, or support a different future interpretation, I am all ears.
LOL! You don't want to explain Rev and Thess because you know what they show.
Nobody that believes the GT is future disagrees that there was fulfillment in 66-70ce, etc. But that does not mean that there is not a fuller far-reaching fulfillment of it.
It is clear you have no clue what you are talking about.
You said:
Absolutely clear that the GB does not know how to interpret scripture. The GT of Matthew 24 occurred and terminated in the first century with the destruction of Jerusalem. The GT was a non-repeatable local event affecting "this people" inhabiting Judea and Jerusalem.
To make it a dual prophecy, is to make Jesus speaking simultaneously, literally to His generation of believers and figuratively to ours.
Context is everything
The context of the GT leads to the destruction of the temple and the subsequent dispersal of the survivors.If you think the GT fulfillment was limited to the destruction of the temple, then when did this part get fulfilled:
[14 “However, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader use discernment), then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains. 15 Let the man on the housetop not come down nor go inside to take anything out of his house; 16 and let the man in the field not return to the things behind to pick up his outer garment. 17 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! 18 Keep praying that it may not occur in wintertime; 19 for those days will be days of a tribulation such as has not occurred from the beginning of the creation that God created until that time, and will not occur again....24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.]
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Who were the GC that came out of that GT:
[9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.13 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
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80
Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?
by liam inmay 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.
what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.
now the wt is saying that's not enough.
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Duran
can you explain when and how the following will transpire?
Why do you need that from me to answer what I asked you. I agreed with you for arguments sake that that pertains to 66-70 period as you say. And in reality, it does, it just has a dual fulfillment, which you do not believe it does. You say that time was the time of the GT and will not be repeated, that no GT/captivity by the nations will happen again in the future.
So, it is you that needs to explain the timing of Rev 13:5,7,10 -Rev 7:9,13,14 - 2 Thess 1:7-10...if they pertain to 66-70 period or a future time?
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135
Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!
by liam inwe get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?
that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.
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Duran
Vatican: Pope Francis is suffering from double pneumonia
Crowds gather nightly in Vatican City to pray for Pope Francis
Funny headline in regard to a person supposed to be a man from God and that believes he will go to heaven when he dies.
To pray for his recovery reminds me of the saying; 'Everyone wants to go to heaven, just not today'.
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80
Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?
by liam inmay 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.
what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.
now the wt is saying that's not enough.
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Duran
The times of the Gentiles referred to the treading down, or desolation, of first century Jerusalem, which Jesus called "the days of vengeance". In other words, it was God's mission for the Gentiles to bring judgment upon Jerusalem...The times of the Gentiles, or treading down of Jerusalem, entailed no more than a forty two month period of time, the exact duration of the Jewish-Roman War.
Let's say 66ce-70ce was that 42-month period of Rev 11:2 and that is 'the time of the gentiles'. (Luke 21:24) You claim that period was the GT.
Okay, how do you explain, that when Jesus is said to come, it is at a time when tribulation is occurring upon those that have faith in him, and they get relief from that Trib upon them when he arrives? (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10)
If the GT was during 66-70ce and if all those that listened to Jesus' warning to flee, fled, then who are the chosen ones that were still in Jerusalem that on account of them the GT had to be cut short/limited to 42 months?
And do you say that the GT mentioned in Rev 7, is the same period as 66ce-70ce GT or is it a different GT?
Lastly, has this taking place yet?
[ 5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.]
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80
Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?
by liam inmay 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.
what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.
now the wt is saying that's not enough.
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Duran
The enslavement and dispersion of Jews among the nations in 70 AD was the fulfillment of Jesus prophecy found in Luke 21:20-24
This prophecy was fulfilled and is not slated to happen again.
Conclusion: The Great Tribulation spoken of in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 is prophecy fulfilled, i.e., over and done with.[20 “However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. 21 Then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains, let those in the midst of her leave, and let those in the countryside not enter into her, 22 because these are days for meting out justice in order that all the things written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.]
So, you are saying 'the appointed times of the nations' have ended/have been fulfilled?
If they started in 70, when did they end?
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When did or does the following take place:
[ 2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months.]
[ 5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.]
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80
Flee to the Mountains......What Mountains?
by liam inmay 2025 study article 21 seek the city that will remain.
what i remember was, when you see the romans, flee to the mountains.
now the wt is saying that's not enough.
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Duran
Only God knows that. Our job is to be ready for the second coming of the Son.
I am not asking as it pertains to the whole day and hour thing...I just want to know from you if you know from the Scriptures when his second coming is said to take place?
Who said anything about what Jew are experiencing today?
You did when you said:
They were to be enslaved and dispersed among the nations where they have been for the last 1900+ years.
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Yes. In the events leading to and including those occurring in 70 AD.
So, you are claiming this has been fulfilled:
[17 Between the porch and the altar Let the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, weep and say: ‘Do feel pity, O Jehovah, for your people; Do not make your inheritance an object of scorn, Letting the nations rule over them. Why should the peoples say, “Where is their God?”’3 “For look! in those days and in that time, When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather together all the nationsAnd bring them down to the Valley of Je·hoshʹa·phat. I will enter into judgment with them there In behalf of my people and my inheritance Israel, For they scattered them among the nations, And they divided up my land among themselves.]
Jews are all over the world today and only granted a country in 1948
Any so-called Jews that are all over the world today, is due to their own doing, by them not returning in 1948 nor any time since.
A similar enslavement and disbursement among the nations is not scheduled to happen again after the parousia.
Correct, no enslavement occurs after Jesus' second coming. It takes place before he comes.
It is your claim that that enslavement started in 70ce and has continued for 1900+ years with the Jews being all over the world. But you have stated that they could return in 1948. So that means they are no longer enslaved among the nations after 1948. (70 to1948 = 1878 years of enslavement)
Where do you place Rev 11:2;13:5,7,10 as taking place...before 1948 or after?