IS JESUS A CREATED BEING? DEBATE WITH PASTOR

by raymond frantz 21 Replies latest jw experiences

  • raymond frantz
    raymond frantz

    https://youtu.be/ro6q_OSgKNs?si=hyXUALLUhRUwVjNB

    —Colossians 1:15 from the NWT says it plain as day: “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.” That’s not vague; it’s got a punch. “Firstborn” and “creation” sit side by side, and in Greek, that second word is “ktisis,” which means the physical stuff—trees, stars, you name it. The Witnesses are onto something: Jesus being “firstborn of all creation” ties Him right into that group. It’s like saying someone’s first in the queue—without “queue,” “first” is just a floating word. You can’t define “first” unless you know what it’s first of, and here, it’s “creation.” The pastor, though? He’s doing Olympic-level gymnastics to dodge that. He wants “firstborn” to mean “most important” or “top boss,” not “first one made.” He’s basically divorcing “firstborn” from “creation” like they’re in a bad marriage, pretending “ktisis” doesn’t mean what it means. Newsflash, pastor: words don’t bend that far without breaking.

    Let’s run with that queue example. If I say, “I’m first in the queue,” you don’t think, “Oh, he’s the king of queues!” No, you get that I’m part of the line, just at the front. “First” only makes sense because of “queue”—I’m in the group, not above it. Same deal here: “firstborn of all creation” puts Jesus in the set called “creation,” not hovering over it like some cosmic VIP. The pastor’s trick is to snip that connection, toss “ktisis” into the metaphor blender, and serve up a Trinitarian smoothie. He’s banking on you not noticing that “ktisis” is about tangible, made stuff—sorry, no poetic license gets you out of that. Sure, “firstborn” can carry rank in some contexts, like a prince in a family, but when it’s tied to “all creation,” you can’t just wave it off as a title. The text isn’t playing that game.

    And can we talk about the pastor’s smug vibe? He’s out here acting like he’s got the golden ticket to truth, while the Witnesses are just lost sheep. That “borderline heresy” jab at the end? Classic move. Trinitarians love to slap labels on anyone who doesn’t buy their three-in-one deal—sounds familiar, doesn’t it? The Watchtower does the same thing, calling dissenters apostates or worse. Pot, meet kettle. Both sides are so busy name-calling they forget to wrestle with the actual words. The pastor’s tactic mirrors the Witnesses’ own playbook: dodge the hard stuff, lean on your doctrine, and dunk on the other guy. He’s not debating; he’s preaching with a side of sass. Meanwhile, Sarah and Mike are at least trying to stick to the verse, even if their lens is tinted too. Point is, “firstborn of all creation” isn’t a riddle—it’s a statement. The pastor’s the one muddying it up to prop up his Trinity tower.

    So, what’s the takeaway? The pastor’s got charisma, but his argument’s a house of cards. Splitting “firstborn” from “creation” is a stretch that’d make a yoga instructor wince. “Ktisis” isn’t some abstract vibe—it’s the nuts and bolts of the universe. Jesus as “firstborn of all creation” fits Him into that story, not above it. The queue analogy holds: you don’t get “first” without the group it’s tied to. The pastor can smirk and sling “heresy” all he wants, but he’s the one playing fast and loose with the text. Next time, maybe skip the theatrics and just read what’s there, right?

    Also just because I'm an exjw doesn't mean I can't see patronising cult behaviour from other Christian sects who like name calling when things don't go their way.

  • sloppyjoe2
    sloppyjoe2

    This is an endless debate that frankly will never be settled. If one wants to make Jesus God, there are verses one can use to make the case. If one wants to say Jesus isn’t God, there are verses one can use to make that case. It’s just a debate back and forth of this verse says this and well that verse says that.

  • Rivergang
    Rivergang

    sloppyjoe2,

    Precisely!

    This is a stoush which has been raging for over 1500 years, and unlikely to be ended anytime soon.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    Wow, I leave for a couple weeks and the old "problems" get resurrected again!

    Jehovah's Witnesses and many former JW's frame this issue to try and make it seem like there is no answer. I wish people would just get wise to the misdirection and stop debating the wrong issue. It is very simple.

    The problem that heretics have is not the nature of Jesus. The problem they have is refusing to accept the nature of man.

    Scripture is clear that man is a tripartite being made up of a body, a soul, and a spirit.

    Genesis 1:26–27 indicates that God created mankind distinct from all the other creatures. Scripture clearly teaches that man is intended to experience intimate relationship with God, and, therefore, He created us as a unity of both material (physical) and immaterial (spiritual) aspects (Ecclesiastes 12:7, Matthew 10:28, 1 Corinthians 5:5, 2 Corinthians 4:16; 7:1, James 2:26).

    The material component of humans is obviously that which is tangible and temporal: the physical body. The immaterial aspects are intangible: soul, spirit, intellect, will, conscience, mind, emotions, etc. These exist unendingly beyond the lifespan of the physical body.

    See 1 Thessalonians 5:23 and Hebrews 4:12

    For many people, the idea of being conscious for eternity separated from God and all the good stuff he made is more than ample reason to suppress this foundational teaching of Christ; the truthfullness of which is guaranteed by God's own blood, and Jesus' predicted self-resurrrection from the dead. People settle into a self-deception of trying to be a good person and hope for the best. The false reasoning allows people to falsely conclude that if they got it all wrong, they will just cease to exist and there will be no cost for this choice. It will all be as if they never existed eventually.

    Suppression is a very powerful psychological tool the mind uses to deal with trauma, like the denial stage with a cancer diagnosis for example.

    It is this suppression that prevents people from even being able to contemplate the idea of Jesus being both God and Man, and not either / or as unbelievers try over and over to frame the arugment.

    The terrifying prospect of being conscious for eternity alienated from God is what drives Trinity debates, not the concept. The concept is easily explained when a person simply believes what God said about the nature in which he made us.


  • Duran
    Duran

    SB making his chart...

    Premium Photo | 3 years old boy doing painting at the home

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Totally agree. The phrase “firstborn of all creation” is so clear in explaining who Jesus is that it took centuries of Trinitarian dogma to attempt to obscure its plain meaning. The passage in Colossians is drawing on the Jewish wisdom tradition which also describes God’s first creation. It includes the parallel thought that Jesus is “the firstborn from the dead”. In other words, just as Jesus was God’s first creation, so also Jesus is the first human (“the firstborn among many brothers” Rom 8.29) who God raised from the dead to immortality. In context Jesus is also called the image of God, the beginning, and the one by whom God created all things. Such emphatic language is no doubt why most church goers when surveyed in fact agree with JWs that Jesus is God’s first creation, exalted in power and glory, no ordinary angel, but second only to God himself.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    The word "firstborn" (Greek word "prototokos") signifies priority. In the culture of the Ancient Near East, the firstborn was not necessarily the oldest child. Firstborn referred not to birth order but to rank. The firstborn possessed the inheritance and leadership.

    Therefore, the phrase expresses Christ’s sovereignty over creation. After Jesus resurrected himself from the dead, God gave Him authority over the Earth (Matthew 28:18). Jesus created the world, saved the world, and rules the world. He is the self-existent, acknowledged Head of creation.

    The phrase recognizes Him as the Messiah: "I will make Him [Christ] My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth" (Psalm 89:27).

    Six times the Lord Jesus is declared to be the firstborn of God:

    (see Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15, 18; Hebrews 1:6; 12:23; Revelation 1:5). These passages declare the preexistence, the sovereignty, and the redemption that Christ offers.

    Thus, the phrase "firstborn of all creation" proclaims Christ’s preeminence.

    Right after the "firstborn" usage, scripture says this: Col. 1: 18b-19 - that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell.


    PRE-EM'INENCE, noun

    1. Superiority in excellence; distinction in something commendable; as pre-eminence in honor or virtue; pre-eminence in eloquence, in legal attainments or in medical skill.

    The preeminence of christianity to any other religious scheme--

    2. Precedence; priority of place; superiority in rank or dignity.

    That in all things he might have the preeminence. Colossians 1:1.

    Painful preeminence! yourself to view

    Above life's weakness and its comforts too.

    3. Superiority of power or influence.


    Obviously, scripture wants us to know that Jesus is God in the flesh. Using the chart in my previous post, it is easy to see how "Jesus the man" is sometimes referred to in scripture, and sometimes "Jesus as God" is referred to, because he is BOTH.

    That is why the name of Jesus is HIGHER than the name of Jehovah: "Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name"

    Just look it up in Websters dictionary:

    FIRST'-BORN, adjective

    1. First brought forth; first in the order of nativity; eldest; as the first-born son.

    2. Most excellent; most distinguished or exalted. Christ is called the first-born of every creature. Colossians 1:1.

    Heretics love to take scripture out of context and change definitions of words, imagining they have some special insight and decerrnment others don't have.

    @SlimBoyFat: Are you still rejecting the new covenant "for the forgiveness of sins" Jesus offered in Mt. 26: 27-28 ?

    If so, then you have no basis for salvation what so ever. This is what is driving your rejection of the tri-partite nature of man, and by extension the deity of Christ.

    Please explain your disobedience to Christ's command to accept his offer for forgiveness of sins. Because, it appears to me to be totally insane to be outside of the clutches of Watchtower and still display such open rebellion against the authority of Christ, while claiming belief in God.

  • WingCommander
    WingCommander

    Next Up:

    Was the Easter Bunny born of a rabbit, or did he hatch from an egg?

    Was the Easter Bunny the first to "taste the rainbow", or was it the silly Trix Rabbit?

  • TTWSYF
    TTWSYF

    The Bible is filled with what seems as many contradictions. We all need an authority to interpret this holy book. Taking specific scripture passages out of context can always lead to confusion.

    One will always get a better feel for what the author is trying to convey by reading the complete paragraph and chapter.

    Taking scriptures out of context, and breaking down, the specific grammar does not teach honest, biblical scholarship. This is common sense to anyone who’s ever read a book.

    Make no mistake, Jesus claimed to be God.

    John 8:58-59 Jesus claims directly to be God when he says “before Abraham was, I am “

    Some will deny that, but the Jews around Jesus, instantly picked up stones to kill him for blasphemy. That is the specific sin/claim of being equal to God. If Jesus did not say that he was God, then why were they trying to kill him for blasphemy? Just common sense.

    John 10:30-33 “I and the father are one “ and again, the crowd picks up stones to kill him for blasphemy. Again, the claim of blasphemy is to claim yourself equal to God. He may have not said in our English translation “I am God “but in Aramaic, that’s exactly what he said. They even told him “you make yourself, God “

    When the apostles asked, “show us the father “. Jesus replies “whoever has seen me, has seen the father. Pretty direct quote of Jesus saying he is God.

    Mark 2:5-7 Jesus, forgives, a sinner, and the Jews say “who can forgive sins, but God alone? “ what does Jesus do? Immediately after he forgives his sins, he heals the man.

    Mathew 25:31 states that Jesus is the one who judges the world, who separates the wheat from the weeds, he alone decides who goes where.

    Of course, 100% depends on where you put the authority of interpreting the Scriptures. I’ll put the authority in where the Scriptures came from. Others put the authority in an organization that picked up a Catholic book and decided that they knew better than the people who wrote, protected, taught l, lived by it righteous teachings.

    TTWSYF

  • Halcon
    Halcon
    Seabreez- @SlimBoyFat: Are you still rejecting the new covenant "for the forgiveness of sins" Jesus offered in Mt. 26: 27-28 ? If so, then you have no basis for salvation what so ever. This is what is driving your rejection of the tri-partite nature of man, and by extension the deity of Christ.

    Seabreeze I believe you are well intentioned. However, there's nothing in the scriptures that state that if we reject the tripartite nature of man it means we lose salvation.

    Sloppyjoe made a good argument that we could interpret the scriptures as stating that Jesus is the same as God, or that Jesus is the son of God (below God).

    If by chance we misunderstood this one thing (believing that the word 'son' means son), but placed faith in everything else wholeheartedly...we would still be condemned to hell?

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