Posts by Halcon

56

Can God Change his Mind?

by peacefulpete in

is 31:yet he also is wise and will bring disaster and does not retract his words.. 1 sam 15: furthermore, the eternal one of israel does not lie or change his mind, for he is not man who changes his mind.. numbers 23: god is not a man who lies, or a son of man who changes his mind.

does he speak and not act, or promise and not fulfill?.

when the god you worship pronounces judgement, is he, really just issuing a warning or has the matter been determined through all the godly powers of insight, foresight and perfect judgement?

Halcon

Tonus -I don't know. Curiosity? A desire for some degree of certainty? These are traits we still carry with us today, and they likely would have been much more useful in our distant past.

The lengthy and rather scientific process you theorized these primitives may have carried out to arrive at a conclusion of God seems much too laborious to just appease curiosity. Imagine a tribe of people, mostly concerned with finding food and staying alive, sitting down and determining 'we MUST invent an explanation for X". It goes against the notion that these people, the males in particular, were all about practicality and efficiency.

Based on what we understand of these primitives, it seems it would have been more logical to attribute anything mysterious to themselves, and thereby gain an upper hand amongst themselves. To have attributed these powers to someone outside of themselves undermines the logical process you described and further, undermined man all the way to now.

The desire for certainty in these people was supposedly seen and carried out in their actions. In their supposed daily fight for survival. We are led to believe today that these primitives MADE their future possible by virtue of their physical strength and force of will.

But if they indeed had faith in their god or gods that they could aid them in their survival, or even utterly dictate their fortune or misfortune, then it wasn't simply an invention to appease curiosity or create certainty.

56

Can God Change his Mind?

by peacefulpete in

is 31:yet he also is wise and will bring disaster and does not retract his words.. 1 sam 15: furthermore, the eternal one of israel does not lie or change his mind, for he is not man who changes his mind.. numbers 23: god is not a man who lies, or a son of man who changes his mind.

does he speak and not act, or promise and not fulfill?.

when the god you worship pronounces judgement, is he, really just issuing a warning or has the matter been determined through all the godly powers of insight, foresight and perfect judgement?

Halcon

This is true, the unknown inspires imagination. Thoughts are a powerful thing.

56

Can God Change his Mind?

by peacefulpete in

is 31:yet he also is wise and will bring disaster and does not retract his words.. 1 sam 15: furthermore, the eternal one of israel does not lie or change his mind, for he is not man who changes his mind.. numbers 23: god is not a man who lies, or a son of man who changes his mind.

does he speak and not act, or promise and not fulfill?.

when the god you worship pronounces judgement, is he, really just issuing a warning or has the matter been determined through all the godly powers of insight, foresight and perfect judgement?

Halcon

You dog and your wife infer based on what they cannot see (the wind and what made the sound of a creaking floor).

Fire and water were both visible and could be interacted with. Yet seeing and touching fire and water were not enough.

Further, these primitives probably made use of these elements. In other words, they were thoroughly familiar with them (unlike not knowing why a sound was made). Yet they still made gods out of them.

56

Can God Change his Mind?

by peacefulpete in

is 31:yet he also is wise and will bring disaster and does not retract his words.. 1 sam 15: furthermore, the eternal one of israel does not lie or change his mind, for he is not man who changes his mind.. numbers 23: god is not a man who lies, or a son of man who changes his mind.

does he speak and not act, or promise and not fulfill?.

when the god you worship pronounces judgement, is he, really just issuing a warning or has the matter been determined through all the godly powers of insight, foresight and perfect judgement?

Halcon

Tonus -The creation of god(s) was probably a very lengthy, gradual process. Many ideas and explanations would have been offered. The ideas and explanations that could be most easily tested and challenged would have been filtered out over time. The ones that were difficult or impossible to disprove would have held on longer, and eventually been refined.

Suddenly these primitive people, supposedly more evolved til then to primarily just survive, don't sound so primitive after all.

But again, why would they go through all this to begin with? What would have been the advantage obtained that couldn't be obtained thru any other means? If it was simply to satisfy knowing the unknown, why would it matter if you knew it was wrong anyway? And even so, why not just claim to know yourself...why attribute that knowledge to a god? Wouldn't that have been more logical?

The appearance of God and gods in ancient writings everywhere simply affirms how either the concept of God was instinctive in man, or how genius the guy who made it up was.

56

Can God Change his Mind?

by peacefulpete in

is 31:yet he also is wise and will bring disaster and does not retract his words.. 1 sam 15: furthermore, the eternal one of israel does not lie or change his mind, for he is not man who changes his mind.. numbers 23: god is not a man who lies, or a son of man who changes his mind.

does he speak and not act, or promise and not fulfill?.

when the god you worship pronounces judgement, is he, really just issuing a warning or has the matter been determined through all the godly powers of insight, foresight and perfect judgement?

Halcon

I'm guessing that the spirit in the fire was distinguished from the spirit in the water for obvious reasons.

This is precisely an instinctive thing to have done. Why did man have to see a spirit in the fire or the water? Why not leave it at "it's hot" or "it's wet"?

You say that it's because the mind is dynamic. But in all the dynamic ways it could have concluded it had to be God (or gods, since we don't have a record of which came first).

Humans are very good at copying and combining concepts. The concept of animate invisible spirits/gods is a projection of our own sense of agency/self upon an unexplainable action. We then, as I said, imagine the spirit to be like what we are familiar with, a human form or animal.

Yet God isn't imperfect or incomplete like us. We look "up" to him. Even those primitives that inferred on fire and water saw spirits that did things that they themselves couldn't do as humans. The very notion that they ascribed these spirits human like characteristics to reduce their fear of them implies that the spirits were superior to humans in some way, which caused fear. They apparently had to be made more 'familiar', according to the theory.

For you, monotheism and black cat superstitions, are a result of a very long process. I can understand that. However, you also credit the initial thought that started the whole process as not being entirely original either. If that initial thought was also a result of a process, is there ever a true original idea or concept?

56

Can God Change his Mind?

by peacefulpete in

is 31:yet he also is wise and will bring disaster and does not retract his words.. 1 sam 15: furthermore, the eternal one of israel does not lie or change his mind, for he is not man who changes his mind.. numbers 23: god is not a man who lies, or a son of man who changes his mind.

does he speak and not act, or promise and not fulfill?.

when the god you worship pronounces judgement, is he, really just issuing a warning or has the matter been determined through all the godly powers of insight, foresight and perfect judgement?

Halcon

Tonus-I don't know if god was always the explanation for the unknown. It may have been the most convenient explanation because it wasn't falsifiable. If there was a single being responsible, one would expect that every explanation would refer to this specific being. But, over the course of human history, entire pantheons were invented and catalogued and used to explain the unknown.

Your claim that it was God, because God wasn't falsifiable assumes a great degree of thought and mental capacity on the part of its originator.

Assuming that the first human being who came up with the idea of God was very primitive, this same primitive had to weigh an impressive amount of pros and cons, data, variables etc in order to formulate and arrive at an unfalsifiable God in order for the idea to stick. That's impressive for a supposed 'caveman'.

In fact it was such a stroke of genius from that primitive that this notion of God still exists today, eons removed from all the ignorance that once existed.

56

Can God Change his Mind?

by peacefulpete in

is 31:yet he also is wise and will bring disaster and does not retract his words.. 1 sam 15: furthermore, the eternal one of israel does not lie or change his mind, for he is not man who changes his mind.. numbers 23: god is not a man who lies, or a son of man who changes his mind.

does he speak and not act, or promise and not fulfill?.

when the god you worship pronounces judgement, is he, really just issuing a warning or has the matter been determined through all the godly powers of insight, foresight and perfect judgement?

Halcon

Thank you Pete and Tonus for responding.

Pete-So, what I'm getting at is there is nothing "all at once" about it. Human religious development grew from simple assumptions of agency involved in the otherwise unexplainable movement into complex rationalizations of how to appease these agents. The agents are mental constructs that offer comfort or fear.

I am understanding that you believe that when the first human did what you explained above, he bypassed the possibility of there being just ONE god and immediately inferred that it was multiple gods ...all at once. You believe that there was no gradual rationalization from one god to many.

Further, that this happened in a 'vacuum' where the idea or most minimal concept of a god was inexistent.

This theory, then, reflects instinctive action and thought. From absolutely nothing to suddenly, all at once (no graduality), gods. This is very impressive to say the least. Which is why I've asked, even if this theory is correct, why this instinct?

The inferring that it was multiple gods was not an inconsequential idea. In fact, it's stuck to this modern day.

56

Can God Change his Mind?

by peacefulpete in

is 31:yet he also is wise and will bring disaster and does not retract his words.. 1 sam 15: furthermore, the eternal one of israel does not lie or change his mind, for he is not man who changes his mind.. numbers 23: god is not a man who lies, or a son of man who changes his mind.

does he speak and not act, or promise and not fulfill?.

when the god you worship pronounces judgement, is he, really just issuing a warning or has the matter been determined through all the godly powers of insight, foresight and perfect judgement?

Halcon

pete-Well, that really isn't the case. Many spirits were assumed minor powers, many were thought of as mischievous and with unique abilities other than ours to cause trouble but not all powerful. Polytheism/henotheism essentially means that there was no all-powerful. Power was distributed around as agents of countless phenomenon. Eventually the philosophically literate had a problem with their deity being less than everything and imagined a single all-in-one God.

You believe that the very first human being that invented the concept of God looked all around at all the things he couldn't explain and all at once attributed them to a thousand different gods despite there being absolutely no concept of God in existence...then much later on someone different said no, it's just one god?

Even if this was true, the inferring by this human lead to a conclusion that it was a group of beings greater than he. Otherwise, he would have been able to explain any occurrence thru his own human experience.

56

Can God Change his Mind?

by peacefulpete in

is 31:yet he also is wise and will bring disaster and does not retract his words.. 1 sam 15: furthermore, the eternal one of israel does not lie or change his mind, for he is not man who changes his mind.. numbers 23: god is not a man who lies, or a son of man who changes his mind.

does he speak and not act, or promise and not fulfill?.

when the god you worship pronounces judgement, is he, really just issuing a warning or has the matter been determined through all the godly powers of insight, foresight and perfect judgement?

Halcon

Pete-Belief in spirits (in objects or in actions like wind) is the product of inferential logic. When nothing readily visible accounts for an action or growth, something invisible must. These invisible agents naturally took the form of the visible animals and people the mind is familiar with. The ability to reason inferentially is vital for survival, but often leads to incorrect conclusions when the causative factor is less than obvious. My clever dog has inferential reasoning. When the wind blows and slams a door he barks assuming someone came in. Who knows how his mind explains the fact that he sees no one. He might be clever enough to imagine invisible someones.

This is all clear. However, it doesn't answer the question of why, instinctively, does man always infer that it is a being greater than himself?

From the beginning of time to now, it's the same conclusion.

Why do you suppose the very first human that assumed it was God inferred this way... when the idea and concept of God was presumably non existent?

56

Can God Change his Mind?

by peacefulpete in

is 31:yet he also is wise and will bring disaster and does not retract his words.. 1 sam 15: furthermore, the eternal one of israel does not lie or change his mind, for he is not man who changes his mind.. numbers 23: god is not a man who lies, or a son of man who changes his mind.

does he speak and not act, or promise and not fulfill?.

when the god you worship pronounces judgement, is he, really just issuing a warning or has the matter been determined through all the godly powers of insight, foresight and perfect judgement?

Halcon

Tonus -Ganted, the more likely explanation is that it began as a way to explain the (then) inexplicable. The development of gods into powerful invisible friends would come gradually, and the abuse of the concept would follow soon after, is my guess.

Again, was it mere coincidence that instead of anything else as an explanation, time and time again it had to be God?