Posts by Halcon

171

Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat in

in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

Halcon

Am I against you? Am I really an enemy? Or am I just an academic writing from an academic point of view? Evil or academic?

Hi Kaleb. Well, from my perspective as a person of faith....

No you are not an enemy. No one here is. Even the atheist nonbelievers are simply offering their perspective. I do enjoy greatly your academic contributions. It's always great to see the different angles.

The Trinity is a Christian "mystery," in other words a revealed truth, based upon the Apostolic Fathers' understanding and experience of Jesus and life in what they called the "Spirit." The dogma would become a formal creed years before a canonical library was created by and for the Church

This particular point is key to me personally. It's a point I understood some time ago, and it certainly renders the 'debate' rather unnecessary. The acceptance that this concept of the Trinity is a 'mystery' places it in the same group as all other impossible to determine concepts.

One of the things that drove my parents away from the Catholic Church was the common statement that "that is only for God to know". This wasn't sufficient for them. It's ironic that I now agree with that statement. Is God part of a Trinity? Is he not? Does it matter? Does it diminish my faith to not know definitively?

No.

Either way I'm still only human, and God is still a superior spiritual being.

40

Who Are the "Other Sheep" and Jesus "Brothers" ?

by Sea Breeze in

watchtower plays lots of games with definitions.

once they change a definition then they have a false assumption to build their deception on.

then they repeat the new definition and use its new meaning thousands of times to reinforce it.

Halcon

How much of the right Jesus (or the right resurrection) is enough for Salvation? The Lord will make that determination.

This makes perfect sense. The Lord will decide.

I offer my testimony as an example of how I got saved. But, I am confident that if I had not abandoned the idea that Jesus was really Michael the Archangel, I would not have been able to pray to him. Of that I'm sure. Furthermore, I never really bought into the idea that Jesus wasn't in the same body after he was resurrected, even as a JW.

I am not convinced that Jesus is the same as Michael myself. Refer to Jesus as Michael in a JW setting and everyone begins to squirm. However, it truly doesn't really matter to me if he is or isn't. It's the same team, so to speak and doesn't change anything about his resurrection.

Some things are simply above me, and if God wanted to he would shed more light on them for us.

But the 30,000 ft. view is that the enemy is definitely targeting the minimal belief requirements God has stated that is necessary for Salvation. That realization alone should be enough to warrant further reconsideration of JW assumptions (Watchtower definitions)

The minimal belief is precisely what we read in Romans.

The enemy doesn't waste time with things like what we've discussed. That's just man getting in his own way. The enemy focuses on trapping us with greed, hate, violence, self idolatry as you said, spiritism, worshipping it itself. Things like these are the real dangers.

40

Who Are the "Other Sheep" and Jesus "Brothers" ?

by Sea Breeze in

watchtower plays lots of games with definitions.

once they change a definition then they have a false assumption to build their deception on.

then they repeat the new definition and use its new meaning thousands of times to reinforce it.

Halcon

Sadly they had to be told that Jesus NEVER knew them…. Not even once. In other words, they are deceived.

Imagine wholeheartedly striving to excercise faith in Jesus...but because somebody else deceived you over how Jesus technically became resurrected...you are 'sadly' still going to hell...

40

Who Are the "Other Sheep" and Jesus "Brothers" ?

by Sea Breeze in

watchtower plays lots of games with definitions.

once they change a definition then they have a false assumption to build their deception on.

then they repeat the new definition and use its new meaning thousands of times to reinforce it.

Halcon

I believe a person must make a deal with the right Jesus, not one that the enemy has conjured up.

The scripture you posted, "not everyone who calls me Lord....", was not referring to a 'wrong' Jesus.

In fact, once again Christ was referring to the state of the person's heart and attitude towards him.

The demonic spirits Jesus refuted knew exactly who he was, witnessed his death and resurrection and even went so far as to acknowledge that he was Lord when they stated they knew who he was. By your explanation, they shouldn't be in hell and yet they are.

40

Who Are the "Other Sheep" and Jesus "Brothers" ?

by Sea Breeze in

watchtower plays lots of games with definitions.

once they change a definition then they have a false assumption to build their deception on.

then they repeat the new definition and use its new meaning thousands of times to reinforce it.

Halcon

Why doesn't Watchtower claim that Lazurus wasn't in his real body when he was resurrected? Why don't they go way out of their way to say his body was turned into gases too? Why only Jesus?

Assuming it did, not sure why it would make a difference. The understanding is still that Jesus died and remained dead for 3 days. I've never been confused about the JW teaching regarding this.

It's a little extreme to claim that anyone who doesn't understand the scholarly way of Romans 10:9 is condemned to hell.

40

Who Are the "Other Sheep" and Jesus "Brothers" ?

by Sea Breeze in

watchtower plays lots of games with definitions.

once they change a definition then they have a false assumption to build their deception on.

then they repeat the new definition and use its new meaning thousands of times to reinforce it.

Halcon

It is the heart of the individual that matters

Is this what you think will save you?

Breeze, what part of us accepts that Christ is Lord and was resurrected?

40

Who Are the "Other Sheep" and Jesus "Brothers" ?

by Sea Breeze in

watchtower plays lots of games with definitions.

once they change a definition then they have a false assumption to build their deception on.

then they repeat the new definition and use its new meaning thousands of times to reinforce it.

Halcon

A resurrection occurs when just the opposite happens - the soul, body and spirit are reunited into one being.

The WT is adament that Jesus was NOT in his own body after the cross. They can't possibly know this fro sure one way or another. So, why the dogmatism?

It only makes sense if WT is trying to circumvent the simplicity of Christ and take peoplel to hell.

I am following your thinking here. However, what about the millions of people (as apparently JWs) out there that don't comprehend the 'scholarly' definitions due to a lack of education? For people that can't even read, dead is dead.

They don't understand the technicalities you say aren't there. Who would be responsible for them not comprehending the 'real' meaning of death so as to truly understand the real meaning of resurrection...and subsequently go to hell because of it?

40

Who Are the "Other Sheep" and Jesus "Brothers" ?

by Sea Breeze in

watchtower plays lots of games with definitions.

once they change a definition then they have a false assumption to build their deception on.

then they repeat the new definition and use its new meaning thousands of times to reinforce it.

Halcon

Romans 10: 9 - If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Pretty simple. So, what does WT do? They say Jehovah is Lord instead of Jesus, and they claim Jesus was not resurrected but his body was turned into gases.

Jesus resurrected - Jesus returned to life; no longer dead

Just about every JW I know has literally declared this with their literal mouth.

Jesus didn't get technical about the word resurrected. Back in the flesh, gases, etc. The point is he was non living, and returned to life. All JWs believe this.

There are no scriptures that indicate a person's sincerity is in any way connected to salvation from judgment. That is little more than self idolatry.

How would you explain how Jesus forgave the criminal hanging next to him on the cross?

40

Who Are the "Other Sheep" and Jesus "Brothers" ?

by Sea Breeze in

watchtower plays lots of games with definitions.

once they change a definition then they have a false assumption to build their deception on.

then they repeat the new definition and use its new meaning thousands of times to reinforce it.

Halcon

just be good

it's not complicated

he said love was the important thing

not crackers and wine

That's basically the gist of it from what I can tell...not to say that being good is easy and automatic. But then, that's where Jesus comes in, making us complete where we are incomplete.

It' s a little bit of a contradiction when one says 'believe that Christ died for you is all you need' but then go parsing doctrinal minutae to demonstrate proof.

40

Who Are the "Other Sheep" and Jesus "Brothers" ?

by Sea Breeze in

watchtower plays lots of games with definitions.

once they change a definition then they have a false assumption to build their deception on.

then they repeat the new definition and use its new meaning thousands of times to reinforce it.

Halcon

Then they try to confuse the issue by claiming that modern Christians don't need to be part of the New Covenant "for the forgiveness of sins" (See Mt. 26: 27-28)

And this is what it is all about. It is an excuse to reject the NC every Lord's Supper so that JW's CANNOT be saved by virture of Christ's blood.... which is the offer on the table for church-age believers.

If I'm following you correctly, the point of the WT is to prevent witnesses from eating and drinking at the Lord's supper.

Altho this is certainly accomplished in a literal way, sincere jws are still choosing the side of Christ. Meaning, those that truly have faith in the general 'life saving' message.

It doesn't seem plausible that God would punish a person who has chosen correctly in their heart on account of following incorrect directions. That seems to be placing more importance on the ritual than the principal itself.