I have to wonder if heaven is anything like what we imagine it to be. What would heaven be, for a being who is so utterly enthralled by suffering?
I've yet to read a scripture where heaven is described as anything similar to suffering.
Halcon
JoinedPosts by Halcon
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129
Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!
by liam inwe get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?
that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.
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Halcon
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129
Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!
by liam inwe get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?
that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.
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Halcon
In the universe that he designed and created, millons --if not billions-- of souls will suffer forever. In the universe that he designed and created, there will always be suffering. Always. This is the universe that he chose to create.
You are completely correct. But what can anyone do about it? Neither you nor I would be the first to have objected to God's rules
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129
Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!
by liam inwe get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?
that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.
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Halcon
He stated he wanted only good outcomes, but a very large number of people will suffer endlessly. What does this tell us about him?
It tells us that we are at the mercy of someone who doesn't allow us to remain neutral on the issue. Apparently we must choose a side. -
129
Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!
by liam inwe get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?
that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.
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Halcon
But we all recognize that argument as absurd. Suffering is suffering, whether it is temporary or not.
So my question remains: Why allow the just to suffer at all?
Suffering for any period of time on account of someone else's fault is very absurd indeed. But it's the rules. Neither you nor I can change them.
Trying to is like the child that argues with the parent when the answer is 'no means no'.
So again, the issue is will we accept the rules, or not.
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129
Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!
by liam inwe get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?
that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.
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Halcon
Yet, when it comes to God allowing human suffering and death, this same fundamental evaluation is often ignored.
Some will argue: "He's not directly hurting or killing people, He’s just allowing it to happen." To that I say: If you have the power to stop something and choose not to, you are just as responsible as if you had done it yourself.
This argument is impossible to refute.
As for: "It a consequence of humans rejecting him in the first place!" As far as I can see, among those who suffer, billions have devoted their lives to God, praying, obeying, and following His commandments as best they could based on information available to them. Yet He still lets them suffer. If suffering is a punishment, then what was their crime?
The crime, according to God, is all humanity having been born of Adam. But to the devoted, their suffering is only temporary, per the scriptures.
So it seems that we cannot escape the fact that God's hand is in fact intervening in both of your arguments. Which means that the issue is in fact the one found in the very beginning at the garden of Eden.
The rules are God's. You either follow them and obtain salvation, or don't follow them and suffer eternal condemnation. Not everyone, it seems, can accept these rules.
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129
Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!
by liam inwe get old because jehovah had to prove to all the angels that his way of ruling was the best?
that's the sorriest argument the watchtower has come up with.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/11hz_jqjkjo.
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Halcon
Moonanchu-Satan didn't challenge God to give mankind freedom to rule himself. He challenged God to let himself rule mankind. Satan is the ruler of the world, all kingdoms are under his power.
This statement, if true, emphasizes the fact that human beings are even more at the mercy of spirit beings , like God and Satan.
The question of why do we die usually gets a 'technical' answer, like the ones above. Regardless of whether they are correct or not, the question is prompted by a desire to keep living. If that desire is strong enough we will look beyond our limitations to try and obtain it, aka scientific advances and God. But the desire is the real trigger to that question.
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Why the WATCHTOWER doesn't believe in the GREAT APOSTASY but you should!
by raymond frantz inhttps://youtu.be/i4uttjj7eus?si=0b-fzpqm8axb_d3p.
in its latest april 2025 watchtower study article 17 and paragraph 12 the watchtower promotes 2 dangerous lies that will cost your life if you are a believing christian during the time of the end, so i'm considering today the first lie in the first part of the paragraph, but first let's read the paragraph itself: "today, jehovah promises to provide us with spiritual protection.
he will never allow satan to corrupt true worship.
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Halcon
Kerry,
Indeed if the Roman empire hasn't ended then it should be a clue as to the spirit behind the Antichrist. Raymond asks some good questions above that help determine that this Antichrist is a far more obviously opposing figure to Christ himself than being any one specific unhinged emperor out of countless many.
If the Roman empire never fully vanished and still operates in the manner in which you described then these scriptures we're discussing are still relevant in the present.
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Why the WATCHTOWER doesn't believe in the GREAT APOSTASY but you should!
by raymond frantz inhttps://youtu.be/i4uttjj7eus?si=0b-fzpqm8axb_d3p.
in its latest april 2025 watchtower study article 17 and paragraph 12 the watchtower promotes 2 dangerous lies that will cost your life if you are a believing christian during the time of the end, so i'm considering today the first lie in the first part of the paragraph, but first let's read the paragraph itself: "today, jehovah promises to provide us with spiritual protection.
he will never allow satan to corrupt true worship.
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Halcon
Kking- but a year of research into the Roman Empire and specifically the years those NT scripts were written, shows to me that both Jesus and Paul were talking about resistance to Rome, and Paul is writing specifically during Nero's time period, the worst persecutor of Christians, and therefore the antichrist Paul was thinking of.
Kerry, your thoughts overall are very positive. However, despite acknowledging the spiritual aspect of the current times we live in (versus believing in a literal final big bang for ex), you seem to completely disregard the spirit entity behind the Roman Republic and Empire.
If Jesus and God didn't cease to exist in the first century, why do you believe their antagonists disappeared with the end of the Roman empire?
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Why the WATCHTOWER doesn't believe in the GREAT APOSTASY but you should!
by raymond frantz inhttps://youtu.be/i4uttjj7eus?si=0b-fzpqm8axb_d3p.
in its latest april 2025 watchtower study article 17 and paragraph 12 the watchtower promotes 2 dangerous lies that will cost your life if you are a believing christian during the time of the end, so i'm considering today the first lie in the first part of the paragraph, but first let's read the paragraph itself: "today, jehovah promises to provide us with spiritual protection.
he will never allow satan to corrupt true worship.
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Halcon
There have always been times when "those in charge" forget they are in their positions as long as they agree privately and publicly with everything the WTS says and prints. Throughout WTS history, those who spoken up in positions of authority, found out who was really in charge and it was not Jehovah and Jesus.
Ty Blondie, while this is interesting it's also unlikely that these 'apostates' now also deemed Antichrist by JW would be accepted back into teaching positions altho not impossible.
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Why the WATCHTOWER doesn't believe in the GREAT APOSTASY but you should!
by raymond frantz inhttps://youtu.be/i4uttjj7eus?si=0b-fzpqm8axb_d3p.
in its latest april 2025 watchtower study article 17 and paragraph 12 the watchtower promotes 2 dangerous lies that will cost your life if you are a believing christian during the time of the end, so i'm considering today the first lie in the first part of the paragraph, but first let's read the paragraph itself: "today, jehovah promises to provide us with spiritual protection.
he will never allow satan to corrupt true worship.
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Halcon
The current WTS dances around but says that apostates leaving the organization become part of the Antichrist (although the WTS also teaches that it is possible for apostates to leave their beliefs and return).
If this is the definition for JWs then the watchtower article in question would be correct. It's unlikely that an 'apostate' as defined by JW holds any significant teaching position.