Posts by TD

51

Is it mathematically posible for Noah and his sons to have populated the earth?

by Fisherman in

bible says flood occurred approximately 4000 years ago.

that is about *200 generations of breeding to get to the population on earth now.

keep in mind that the population increase is geometric.

TD

The genetic bottleneck would be discernable today and not just in humans, but all mammals.

We do know, for example that the cheetah nearly went extinct about 10K years ago.

170

Staying in physically for all the benefits

by Indoubtbigtime in

i wonder how many are like me staying pimo for the great association and gathering etc.

also find it very interesting having a front row seat watching the collapse of borg.. im not wasting any more time or money on anything i don’t want to do like preaching and mostly just go on zoom .

there is nothing i want to do that would be considered disfellowshiping sin, i’m married and want to live by bible principles but i have serious doubts that the gb were chosen by god and are his one and only spokesmen on earth.

TD

I have a counter offer

You've made a lot of mistakes on this thread. On page 12, for example, you posted what appears to be a partial picture of an Apollo LM module together with the following statement:

Some people actually still believe this tinfoil wonder actually flew the distance between the moon and the earth with three men and equipment in it🤣

Atop the the third stage (the S-IVB) of the Saturn rocket was a section called the LM adapter, which connected the third stage to the Service Module. The LM adapter safely housed the Lunar Module, separating into four sections only after the third stage was spent. Here is a diagram of the layout:

The three astronauts, who were in the Command Module, then docked with the Lunar Module and prepared for orbital insertion.This procedure had been rehearsed during both the Apollo 9 & 10 missions. Once Lunar orbit had been achieved, two of the astronauts would get into the Lunar Module and prepare for descent.

Your righteous incredulity is therefore misplaced. The Lunar Module did not carry three astronauts; it carried two. (Mistake 1) It did not carry them from the earth to the moon. It carried them from the Command Module down to the lunar surface and back (sans the descent stage) (Mistake 2) It did not "fly" under propulsion, it was carried in a compartment specifically designed for that purpose. (Mistake 3)

If you can respond honestly and intelligently when somebody untangles one of these ignorant social media posts, then maybe we can talk. Otherwise, I'm going to have to agree with others, that you're trolling.

170

Staying in physically for all the benefits

by Indoubtbigtime in

i wonder how many are like me staying pimo for the great association and gathering etc.

also find it very interesting having a front row seat watching the collapse of borg.. im not wasting any more time or money on anything i don’t want to do like preaching and mostly just go on zoom .

there is nothing i want to do that would be considered disfellowshiping sin, i’m married and want to live by bible principles but i have serious doubts that the gb were chosen by god and are his one and only spokesmen on earth.

TD

indoubtbigtime

This is how you make excuses for these these two pictures NASA claims are genuine

One thing at a time. We're talking about this piece of stupidity here:

I don't think you know what you're talking about, but I could be dead wrong

In your own words, can you explain the basic mathematics of an orbit? Kepler worked it out in 1605, so you shouldn't have too much trouble.

170

Staying in physically for all the benefits

by Indoubtbigtime in

i wonder how many are like me staying pimo for the great association and gathering etc.

also find it very interesting having a front row seat watching the collapse of borg.. im not wasting any more time or money on anything i don’t want to do like preaching and mostly just go on zoom .

there is nothing i want to do that would be considered disfellowshiping sin, i’m married and want to live by bible principles but i have serious doubts that the gb were chosen by god and are his one and only spokesmen on earth.

TD

This is a really hilarious attempt by some Flat Earther type, isn't it?! TBH, I think this is a joke meme.

Sadly it's not.

Some kid who has apparently taken his knowledge of space flight from Star Wars didn't understand that it's normally a series of orbits. (And why)

Earth Orbit ---> Trajectory Orbit ---> Orbital Insertion.

282

How Will They End 1914 Teaching?

by EmptyInside in

i'm sure this has been discussed, but 1914 has to go away.

instead of, the overlapping generation teaching, they should have just ditched 1914. .

they should have done that a long time ago with 1975. it's the last of the teachings in the charles taze russell era.. i'm thinking they just will stop talking about it, and it will be out of the mind of the rank and file loyal witnesses .

TD

Fisherman,

But getting back to the German brethren, how would it have been possible for them to have avoided being persecuted? What is your view?

Ordinary people tended to fall into three groups. Some truly believed the poisonous ideology. Some kept their heads down; said whatever the NSDAP wanted to hear and either did what they could or simply tried to survive. Others ended up wearing red triangles in prison camps.

That war ended nearly 80 years ago and those people have all passed on. In JW theology, virtually everyone gets resurrected, (Mit Ausnahme von Leuten wie dem Schnurrbartmann...) as they have paid the price for their sins.

Let's take an example closer to home. --A U.S. family in the early 1930's. As the children grow up, some of them become JW's and some don't. Those that become JW's identify as the "great multitude" They serve prison terms for refusing to do alternative service. Their children are expelled from school. They struggle to find work as a prison sentence was a huge stigma at the time. Life is difficult for them

They endure these hardships because as Rutherford had said early on:

“Both companies must at all times prove faithful to Jehovah and his kingdom if they would receive God’s ultimate approval.”

JW's have been very explicit that there are two and only two Christian hopes. (There are many more quotes I could give, but I'm going to save them until "Scholar' has spoken his mind.)

Unfortunately, the JW's went way out on a limb by tying one of those two hopes to the supposed proximity of the end.

Things did not work out like they thought and those people are simply growing old and dying, just like everyone else throughout history. The hope they were taught to believe in did not materialize and that is not a trivial matter.

Christians don't serve God specifically for a reward, but if you strip away their Christian hope, they become people most to be pitied. (Not my words...)

So my question, which is essentially "What was the point of being a JW in the first place?" is a legitimate (And sincere) one.

282

How Will They End 1914 Teaching?

by EmptyInside in

i'm sure this has been discussed, but 1914 has to go away.

instead of, the overlapping generation teaching, they should have just ditched 1914. .

they should have done that a long time ago with 1975. it's the last of the teachings in the charles taze russell era.. i'm thinking they just will stop talking about it, and it will be out of the mind of the rank and file loyal witnesses .

TD

Fisherman,

What is your point about tge application of the ransom that you alluded to in your comment?

The first response out of people's mouths when quotes from 1935 to the present are laid end-to-end is to say, "Oh that's easy! The Jonadabs in 1935 were actually "other sheep"" (Or something to that effect.)

Problem is, the JW's have applied other teachings, including the Ransom itself in ways that exclude all but the anointed and great crowd

Three quick examples:

With consciences cleansed, anointed Christians render “sacred service to the living God.” And so do the great crowd. Having cleansed their consciences through “the blood of the Lamb,” they are in God’s great spiritual temple, “rendering him sacred service day and night.”—Revelation 7:14, 15.
(The Watchtower, February 1 1998 p. 21)

"Having suffered to the point of death, Jesus was able to provide the sacrifice needed to help others acquire a righteous standing. To whom does this righteous standing come? First, to his anointed followers. Because they exercise faith in Jesus’ sacrifice, Jehovah declares them righteous with a view to adopting them as sons and making them joint heirs with Jesus. (Romans 5:19; 8:16, 17) Then, “a great crowd” of “other sheep” exercise faith in Jesus’ shed blood and enjoy a righteous standing with a view to being friends of God and survivors of Armageddon.—Revelation 7:9; 16:14, 16; John 10:16; James 2:23, 25.
(Isaiah's Prophecy Vol. II (2001) p. 211)

In his letter to the Colossians, Paul explains that God saw good through Christ to reconcile to Himself all other things by making peace through the blood Jesus shed on the torture stake. Paul also explains that this reconciliation involves two distinct groups of individuals, namely, “the things in the heavens” and “the things upon the earth.”...The things upon the earth” are those individuals in line to enjoy perfect life in Paradise on earth. Revelation 7:9-17 describes them as “a great crowd” who will survive the coming “great tribulation.”"
(Draw Close To Jehovah (2002) p. 146)

JW literature therefore continues to teach that the two groups are virtually synonymous.

282

How Will They End 1914 Teaching?

by EmptyInside in

i'm sure this has been discussed, but 1914 has to go away.

instead of, the overlapping generation teaching, they should have just ditched 1914. .

they should have done that a long time ago with 1975. it's the last of the teachings in the charles taze russell era.. i'm thinking they just will stop talking about it, and it will be out of the mind of the rank and file loyal witnesses .

TD

Scholar,

Just provide the 1984 quote that concerns you as you have not given specific information and then the said scholar will help you for scholar likes to help the little people.

I did provide it. Scholar seems to have missed it somehow.

I will provide it again in response to your second question:

Let us cut to the chase and you provide your understanding of the 'great crowd'

My understanding is of no consequence here. We’re talking about a teaching peculiar to JW’s and they are free to believe and teach it in any fashion they please. And I’m willing to accept whatever explanation(s) offered in official JW publications as what they believe.

Fair enough?

----------

This particular teaching has been taught officially since 1935. There was a convention in Washington DC and those known at the time as “Jonadabs” were invited to attend. On Sunday, during the discourse, The Great Multitude, J.F. Rutherford explained that the “great multitude” of Revelation 7 was actually an earthly class. He subsequently invited the Jonadabs to stand up and identified them as that group. "Behold, the great multitude" were his exact words.

This new teaching was summarized thus:

"The great multitude or Jonadab company manifestly are those whom Jesus called his “other sheep”. To the faithful disciples, the remnant, Jesus said: “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine [the remnant]; . . . and other sheep I have, which are not of this fold [members of the royal house] : them also [the earthly sheep class] I must bring, and they shall hear my voice ; and there shall be [and they shall become, RV.] one fold [one flock], and one shepherd.“-John 10: 14-16"
(The Watchtower August 15, 1935 p. 250)

At the time, it was thought that the “great tribulation” had already started and those people had "come out of it" by joining the “remnant” of “Christ’s brothers” just as Jonadab had joined Jehu.

Here are early and late examples of that teaching:

“To “come out of the great tribulation” (R.V.) not alone means to survive that trouble as ‘flesh that shall be saved’ (Matt. 24: 22) but primarily means that the great multitude come out from Satan’s organization and take their stand on the side of Jehovah during the period of time that elapses from stopping the World War until the day of Armageddon, that is to say, during the time that the “days should be shortened”, and during which time period this gospel of the kingdom is preached” (The Watchtower August 15, 1935 p. 246)

"They have come out since the “beginning of pangs of distress,” seeking salvation from the enthroned God of heaven and earth and through the once-sacrificed “Lamb,” Jesus Christ. They acknowledge Jehovah God as the rightful Ruler of heavenly angels and earthly men. They do not accept any longer the moral and religious standards of this worldly system of things. Instead, as pictured in Revelation 7:9-15, they confess that they are sinners, and they seek to get rid of their dirty appearance. So they wash their robes in the shed blood of the “Lamb,” to take away the unsightly stain of sin." (The Watchtower December 15 1965 p. 754)

As Rutherford understood them, the terms “other sheep” and “great crowd” were virtually synonymous:

“The great multitude is that same class which Jesus describes as his "other sheep". “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." (John 10: 16)”
(Year Book of Jehovah’s Witnesses for 1936 p. 17)

"These honest and sincere ones who thus flee to the Lord the Scriptures designate as the "other sheep" of Jesus Christ, and they are otherwise called Jonadabs and the great multitude."
(1937 Year Book of Jehovah’s Witnesses p. 360)

“Those who will compose the Lord’s “other sheep” are not limited as to the number, but are called the “great multitude” without number, and they come “of all nations and kindreds, and people and tongues”, and they rejoice and joyfully acknowledge that salvation belongeth to Jehovah God and is ministered through Christ Jesus, the King. (Revelation 7: 9, 10)
(Salvation (1939) p. 61)

This terminology continued into the Knorr era and beyond:

“The members of this "great multitude" are the present-day companions of the remnant….Jesus Christ spoke of them as his "other sheep" who are not of the same fold as the remnant of the church or "body of Christ" because the remnant have a heavenly eternity ahead of them whereas the "other sheep" of the "great multitude" have an earthly eternity in human perfection ahead of them”
(The Watchtower November 1, 1947 p. 325)

"Incidentally, this Washington convention proved to be outstanding for the new flash of truth as to the “great multitude” of Revelation 7:9, proving that its members are not a secondary spiritual class destined to go to heaven but that they are an earthly group identical with the “sheep” of Matthew 25:31-46, made known in 1923, and the “Jonadab” class revealed in 1932 with the release of Vindication, Volume 3."
(The Watchtower July 1 1955 p. 394)

“It is further true that in the following year at the spring convention held in Washington, D.C., capital of America, the prophecy in Revelation 7:9-17 was explained and the “great multitude” (AV) therein described was declared to be made up of present-day “other sheep” with earthly hopes, this startling explanation being later published in The Watch Tower as of August 1 and 15, 1935.
(The Watchtower December 15, 1969 p. 755)

In 1970, the JW’s decided that the “great tribulation” was not in progress after all, and the “great crowd” had therefore not actually “come out” of it yet. JW’s with the earthly hope were now viewed as “prospective” members of the great crowd inasmuch as they had the prospect of surviving it.

The adjusted understanding was summarized thus:

“Since the “great crowd” is to survive the “great tribulation,” it is obvious that they would be gathered from among people living in the time just prior to the end of this present system of things….This selection and gathering are taking place now, and will evidently be completed during the lifetime of one generation. Some of that generation will survive into the period of Christ’s thousand-year reign.—Luke 21:32.”
(Life Does Have A Purpose (1977) p.146)

“Especially beginning in 1935, when the identity of the “great multitude,” or “great crowd,” was clearly understood, large numbers of these began to manifest themselves. At first there were hundreds, then thousands, later hundreds of thousands, and now there are millions spread around the globe. God’s infallible Word depicts this group as ‘coming out of the great tribulation,’ being survivors of it, living right on into God’s New Order without ever having to die. (Revelation 7:9, 10, 14; John 11:26) The early members of this group are now in their 60’s or 70’s or older. Jehovah did not allow the ingathering of this group to begin too soon. The “great crowd,” including many of the earliest members thereof, will survive into the “new earth.
Survival Into a New Earth (1984) p. 185 (This is the quote I provided for you earlier)

“Hence, though Revelation 7:9 is describing this crowd after the tribulation, we may apply the term “great crowd” to all with earthly hopes who are rendering Jehovah sacred service now, just before the great tribulation breaks out with the nations’ attack on false religion.”
(The Watchtower April 15, 1995 p. 31)

More time has passed. Simone Liebster, whose name might be familiar to you, turned 90 in 2020, which means she was only 5-years-old in 1935. --Much too young to know whether she was of the anointed or earthly class.

Given the fact that a 15-year-old in 1935 would be 103 today, It is clear that the post 1970 explanation with its dependence upon a chronological understanding of a generation is no longer viable from a mathematical standpoint and is in need of an update.

This brings me to the point I entered this thread. An adjustment to the great crowd teaching is not going to be easy to make, else it would have been made already. (So don't shoot from the hip here)

282

How Will They End 1914 Teaching?

by EmptyInside in

i'm sure this has been discussed, but 1914 has to go away.

instead of, the overlapping generation teaching, they should have just ditched 1914. .

they should have done that a long time ago with 1975. it's the last of the teachings in the charles taze russell era.. i'm thinking they just will stop talking about it, and it will be out of the mind of the rank and file loyal witnesses .

TD

Fisherman

Nobody is until they come out of the gt.

You've hit the nail on the head

Jehovah's Witnesses (Since 1970) have justified the notion that the great crowd could be identified as "prospective" members prior to the millennium via the idea that “time of the end” would not exceed the lifespan of a single generation.

They assured everyone that the “great crowd including many of the earliest members thereof” would live to see the “great tribulation” and therefore had the prospect of surviving it.

I’ve cited an explicit example of that teaching already, but there were plenty more (Which I can quote if you want)

The chronological understanding of the 1914 generation was done away with years ago, but it persists in the great crowd teaching which has never been adjusted.

Modifying this teaching is not as simple as seems at first glance. For example, do the “Other sheep” wash their robes and make them white in the blood of the lamb? Do the “Other sheep” benefit from the Ransom prior to the millennium? These are all things the Bible (Again, as JW’s interpret it) says specifically about the “great crowd” and no one else.

282

How Will They End 1914 Teaching?

by EmptyInside in

i'm sure this has been discussed, but 1914 has to go away.

instead of, the overlapping generation teaching, they should have just ditched 1914. .

they should have done that a long time ago with 1975. it's the last of the teachings in the charles taze russell era.. i'm thinking they just will stop talking about it, and it will be out of the mind of the rank and file loyal witnesses .

TD

Fisherman,

That’s not what I’m pointing out...

Then it has nothing to do with the question I asked.

Look, I shouldn't have to walk you back to period Watchtowers and quote for you the reasons why members of the great crowd needed to suffer the same trials as the anointed and prove themselves faithful in the exact same manner.

slimboyfat and I (And you) discussed this at length about a year ago and I provided copious quotes.

The point is that those 1935ers died and were not members of the Great Crowd because they died and did nit survive the gt.

Well yes, that is the point. You're ahead of scholar at least. They were not members of the great crowd. They were not even prospective members of the great crowd as JW's have taught since 1970. Do I have to show you how JW teachings on the Ransom and how it applies during the time of the end does not cover or account for that fact? Or conversely, can you show me, when and how the great crowd teaching was adjusted?

282

How Will They End 1914 Teaching?

by EmptyInside in

i'm sure this has been discussed, but 1914 has to go away.

instead of, the overlapping generation teaching, they should have just ditched 1914. .

they should have done that a long time ago with 1975. it's the last of the teachings in the charles taze russell era.. i'm thinking they just will stop talking about it, and it will be out of the mind of the rank and file loyal witnesses .

TD

Neil

How so? An adjustment to What?

If you don't see the problem with the 1984 quote I've provided, then I don't think we have a whole lot to discuss.

If you believe that view expressed in that quote has been adjusted and there is some other basis (Other than a chronological understanding of a generation) to identify "prospective" members of the great crowd today, then I would appreciate a reference or two.