Posts by TD

92

Chance or intelligent design?

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

cofty could you answer how the single cell came about by chance?.

i know the argument for complexity in nature says natural selection over billions of years but this could not explain the complexity of the single cell the building blocks of life?.

TD

The challenge in forging any argument is to be careful that it doesn't cut both ways. The value of a sword that hurts you as much as it hurts your opponent is debatable.

For JW's this happens at a very basic level as a direct result of their insistence that the entire antediluvian world was vegetarian.

Since the decomposition chain is an integral part of every ecosystem, who designed the scavengers and other detrivores that devour dead bodies? What form of vegetarianism is that? Who designed it? If it wasn't designed, did it happen by "chance" after all?

Most proponents of ID are more studied in their approach and avoid such obvious pitfalls, but this problem persists in even the most sophisticated ID arguments.

Consider, for example, the life-cycle of the protozoan responsible for malaria. Plasmodium falciparum is a very nasty little creature that reproduces both sexually and asexually, the former in mosquitoes and the latter in humans.

When a female Anopheline mosquito bites an infected victim, it consumes both male and female malarial gametocytes in the victim’s blood. Within the mosquito’s midgut, the male gametocyte undergoes a nuclear division, producing eight flagellated microgametes which fertilize the female macrogamete. The resulting ookinete traverses the mosquito gut wall, forming an oocyst on the outside of the organ. After a few hours, the oocyst ruptures, releasing hundreds of sporozoites into the mosquito body cavity where they migrate to the mosquito salivary gland.

Infection in humans begins with the bite of the infected mosquito. The sporozoites released from the salivary glands of the mosquito enter the bloodstream and invade liver cells. (Hepatocytes) During the next 14 days these parasites differentiate and undergo asexual multiplication resulting in tens of thousands of merozoites which then burst from the infected hepatocyte, into the blood stream. These merozoites now invade red blood cells (Erythrocytes) and undergo an additional round of multiplication, producing more merozoites. Some of these go on to invade additional erythrocytes and while others now differentiate into the sexual forms, male and female gametocytes. These gametocytes will be taken up by the next female Anopheline mosquito that bites.

This is a complicated process involving two distinct synchronous vectors and yet, malaria spreads at an alarming rate. The reason for this merciless efficiency is because P. falciparum facilitates its spread by actually making its human victims more attractive to mosquitoes.

Was this nastiness designed or was it "chance?" A Creator who would design such a thing is very far removed from anything we would view as "good" or "loving." And yet if it happened by "chance" than proponents of ID fall under the shadow of their own argument.

208

How to debunk the 1914 calculus ONLY using JW publications?

by psyco in

i remember having read somewhere, but i cannot find it anymore, that it is possible to debunk the 1914 calculus using only jw publications, like "insight on the scriptures" (chronologies) for example.. do you have any sources about that to suggest to me?.

thanks..

TD

I also now think it is possible that the archaeological dates....

You might find the comments of David Tarler interesting in this regard.

In 1997, the JW's published an article entitled, Jerusalem in Bible Times, What Does Archaeology Reveal? which mentioned both David Tarler and Jane Cahill by name.

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This was Tarler's response: (via email)

I am not familiar with the article you cited - and I would appreciate receiving a copy of it - but I never said that the Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E. I do not think that, today, archeologists could differentiate between 607 B.C.E. and 587 B.C.E. material cultural remains. Assuming that there are material remains from a 604 B.C.E. destruction at Tel Miqne/Ekron and from a 587 B.C.E. destruction at the City of David/Jerusalem, comprehensive analysis of these remains conceivably could yield chronological indicators for other sites, but even then, the archeological conclusions would derive from those assumed dates; the dates themselves would not derive from the archeology.

David Tarler

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This was Jane Cahill's response: (Also via email)

No, I have no idea what this guy is talking about. I have never heard of the Watchtower Society, I have never published anything suggesting that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE, and - as far as I know - Yigal never published anything like that either. I would respond that I know of no evidence supporting such a date. Hope that answers your query.

Take care!

Jane Cahill

208

How to debunk the 1914 calculus ONLY using JW publications?

by psyco in

i remember having read somewhere, but i cannot find it anymore, that it is possible to debunk the 1914 calculus using only jw publications, like "insight on the scriptures" (chronologies) for example.. do you have any sources about that to suggest to me?.

thanks..

TD

I have no iron in this fire and this is not even really "my subject" to be honest. It really doesn't matter to me if the correct date is 587 or 607, but there's things I honestly don't understand on this thread. (Which drives me up the wall...)

On page 8, Rattigan350 said:

It was Nelson Barbour in 1881 that added the 20 years because he thought 587 would lead to a 50 year desolation.

In Three Worlds, Barbour starts with 536 BC, which he believed to be the first year of Cyrus, and counts back 70 years to arrive at 606 BC. Barbour was neither the first, nor the last to rely at least partially upon Ussher's Annales Veteris Testamenfi because the cuneiform artifacts which have caused the disagreement discussed on this thread were still being unearthed at the time.

1881 was a few years after Barbour's separation from Russell, so I am curious about the captioned statement above, and what, if any, connection it has to the JW's. Barbour faded off into obscurity and eventually lost interest in the Adventist approach, from what I understand.

On page 16 of this thread, Fisherman said:

How does concluding that Judah went captive to Babylon for 70 years and Zion lay desolate for 70 years, The 70 years ended when the king of Babylon saw the handwriting on the wall goes against grammar?

By my calculation (Again, perhaps wrong) this would have been the 68th year, which does not strike me as a simple, direct and grammatical reading of Jeremiah 25:12

"But when 70 years have been fulfilled..." NWT

"και εν τω πληρωθήναι τα εβδομήκοντα έτη..." LXX

"...וְהָיָה כִמְלֹאות שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה אֶפְקֹד" MT

All three phrases require posteriority of the condition(s) they reference and it would take a clever explanation indeed to overcome that fact. Even then, it would not be a simple, plain reading.

I don't want to argue, but I am (understandably) curious.

29

why are we interested in what is going on in the JW

by enoughisenough in

for the most of us, we have left the jws...and even though we are no longer jw, many of us are still interested in their beliefs, doctrines and practices as currently practiced.

i was trying to sort out in my mind why i still care about what they are doing.

i think the answer to that is a hope that something will develop in the jws that will wake up a lot of others, and selfishly, a lot of my friends.

TD

Some of us have JW family even if we were never JW's ourselves. Siblings, aged parents, even spouses. You can't just turn your back and pretend that reality doesn't exist, especially in the case of a spouse.

72

Prediction of Watchtower in a Few Years

by Foolednomore in

jw
friends

kingdom halls will be the thing of the past.. conventions (mini assembly halls will still be going on) but will charge for attending and parking and always a donation.

elders will play a much smaller role since csa.

cart preaching will replace door to door.

TD

Once upon a time, before the internet, before satellite, before cable and even before color television, three or maybe even four black and white channels that went off the air at 10:00pm, were the most that anyone had. For those who liked to read, this was the heyday of the dime store novel, but people were still bored out of their minds.

A knock at your door was a welcome diversion, as it could be a neighbor who was as bored as you were, or perhaps actually needed to borrow something. It could be the mailman, who could opt to put the mail directly in your hand and share news of the neighborhood if he had time. It could be a Fuller Brush man, selling high quality brushes you could not find in stores.

It could be an Electrolux, Kirby, Hoover or Eureka representative, selling a new appliance called a vacuum cleaner, which not only eliminated the drudgery of beating carpets, but kept your house cleaner and healthier for crawling babies as well.

It could be a Britannica, Americana or Funk & Wagnalls representative who could sell you your very own set of encyclopedias. If you didn't own a set or know someone who did, your children would have to go to the public library for school assignments, which was not always practical if it wasn't within walking distance.

It was during this era that door to door evangelism was born. And it worked for the same reasons. Women (Because they were left home alone to raise the children) and to a lesser degree, men, were starving for social interaction.

Today, a knock on your door generally means something is wrong and not surprisingly, it instantly puts people on the defensive. Door to door evangelism is not nearly as effective as it once was, if it's even effective at all anymore.

JW's have their traditions, but like any successful movement, they will have to adapt.

26

Details of Noah’s Ark

by enigma1863 in

jw magazines have claimed the flood story has so much detail that it couldn’t be just a made up story.. is it detailed?

name one person outside of noah’s family.

name one nephilim.

TD

Readers of the Noah stories with some sailing experience, recognize the impossibility of a square sided box not being crushed or capsized

Yes. An arch is many times stronger than a flat plane and lofting a series of arches from a central spine is the most effective way to dissipate transient loads. The ancients may have discovered this by trial and error, but it is no less true because of that.

208

How to debunk the 1914 calculus ONLY using JW publications?

by psyco in

i remember having read somewhere, but i cannot find it anymore, that it is possible to debunk the 1914 calculus using only jw publications, like "insight on the scriptures" (chronologies) for example.. do you have any sources about that to suggest to me?.

thanks..

TD

My understanding (perhaps wrong) is that JW's do not recognize multiple 70 year periods.

They date the fall of Babylon to the autumn of 539 and the decree permitting the Jews to return to Jerusalem to Cyrus' first regnal year. To this, they add a period of approximately 4 months for the Jews to make their journey and it is at this point (i.e. Two years later, in the autumn of 537) when the 70 years actually ends.

208

How to debunk the 1914 calculus ONLY using JW publications?

by psyco in

i remember having read somewhere, but i cannot find it anymore, that it is possible to debunk the 1914 calculus using only jw publications, like "insight on the scriptures" (chronologies) for example.. do you have any sources about that to suggest to me?.

thanks..

TD

Scholar

Another word for gobblydook

Not at all. Some of the criticisms of the NWT are weak inasmuch the renderings in question still fall within standard definitions and rules of grammar, even if they do offend the biased views of others. Surely you're aware of this?

With the foregoing in mind, you've argued for a preferential rendering not simply as one of multiple ways the passage could be understood, but as the correct understanding. You've done so on grammatical grounds without actually framing an argument to that effect.

I haven't said you are wrong here. I'm just curious. I'd kinda like to hear the grammatical argument, if there is one.

22

Rückfragen in Verbindung mit der Kündigung von Anthony Morris III

by + in

entschuldigt bitte, wenn ich in deutsch schreibe.. würde ich es „übersetzten“ käme es zu missverständnissen.. ich hätte ein paar rückfragen in verbindung mit der kündigung von anthony morris iii..

) anthony morris iii protzte, vor der kamera, in seiner zeit als mitglied des inneren ordens der wachtturmgesellschaft, immer mit seiner rolex (die seine frau, aus dem spendenshop von einem nachlass eines verstorbenen bruders abgriff) und den goldenen protzringen (die er ebenfalls, als erster, in der spendenshop hierarchie, geierte).. wenn er in seinen vorträgen damit prahlte, das seine eltern wohlhabend waren, stimmt das so lange, solange er auf kosten der brüder lebte.

als er in den kreisdienst wechselte, verkaufte er sein, durch die militärhypothek finanziertes, haus und zog in eine kreisaufseher-wohnung.

TD

Ein paar Antworten...

1.

a.) Gibt es in Amerika noch Menschen, die in Wohnwagen leben?

Ja. Es ist nicht ungewöhnlich, dass ein Rentnerehepaar sein Haus verkauft und in einem Wohnwagen lebt. Einige sind hübsch eingerichtet

b.) Wieviel kostet es mich, wenn ich in Amerika einen solchen Wohnwagen kaufen wollte?

Etwa 40.000 bis 200.000 US-Dollar

c.) Wieviel kostet die Miete für einen solchen Stellplatz?

Ich weiß es leider nicht

d.) Woher kommen der Strom, das Wasser und die Telefon-/Internetverbindung?

Sie können einen Stellplatz in einem Wohnwagenpark mieten. Es gibt Anschlüsse für Strom, Wasser und Abwasser und Sie bezahlen die Stadt

e.) Wieviel kostet der Strom das Wasser und das Telefon etwa monatlich?

Es hängt davon ab, wo Sie leben. Das Heizen und Kühlen eines Wohnwagens kann teurer sein als ein Haus.

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2.

a.) Gibt es in Amerika noch den Job des Einkauftütenpackens im Supermarkt?

Ja, obwohl es in ländlichen Gebieten häufiger vorkommt

b.) Gibt es in Amerika noch diese billigen Plastiktüten, in denen früher der Einkauf eingepackt wurde.

Ja

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3.

a.) Wird in Amerika für die Betheliten Gelder in eine staatliche Rentenkasse eingezahlt?

Ich weiß nicht

b.) Beziehen Betheliten die in Amerika sind, ab dem Erreichen des Rentenalters, Rente?

Keine Ahnung

c.) Gibt es in Amerika eine Sozialhilfe, die ein Lebens-mindest-Minimum ermöglicht?

Es gibt ein Sozialversicherungssystem, in das man aber in jungen Jahren einzahlen muss. (Es ist kompliziert)

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Ich fürchte, ich kenne die Antworten auf den Rest Ihrer Fragen nicht

208

How to debunk the 1914 calculus ONLY using JW publications?

by psyco in

i remember having read somewhere, but i cannot find it anymore, that it is possible to debunk the 1914 calculus using only jw publications, like "insight on the scriptures" (chronologies) for example.. do you have any sources about that to suggest to me?.

thanks..

TD

The said scholar is big on grammar and he has read the verses grammatically in line with sound exegesis.

I'd kinda like to hear a grammatical argument if such can be framed.

Assuming a preferred understanding is the only grammatically possible understanding is exactly how critics of the NWT get themselves into trouble.